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kellyn

Rocky Mtn 3 Gun Proposals

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how much easier is it to shoot stage 8 at this years match not having to reload, i know i can shoot a handgun much faster and reload much faster than i can with a shotgun. and the difficulty of the clays, would not compensate for the ability to reload and shoot faster.

Trapr,

If you could have shot those clays quicker with a pistol than a scattergun then you are the MAN amigo !! :D There is no way I could or would ever have stood any chance of hitting a clay at 20m with 1 pistol shot let alone 10 !!! Mind you saying that, if anyone could shoot that SG stage with a pistol - from what I saw - you are the one that could.

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On stage 6 more than one person shot a clay target with a shotgun slug. Not on purpose, though. :D

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i agree with what pacman said, however on one occassion a member of our squad, forgot to take his slugs with him, i believe it was stage 6, at which point why would he not be able to shoot the plate with his handgun?

then what keeps a person from "accidently" not taking enough ammo with them to finish a stage, the gun still works but ammo limitations keep him from completeing the course.

on a side note, i think the pistol stages should have used targets a bit further out.

the difficulty level was low. you could engage about 90% or more from 5 yds.

if stage 8 had been a pistol stage with paper targets instead of clays that would have been a very nice stage, IMO. including the plates. maybe next year?

Trapr

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Matt brings up the excellent point that many of the things excluded from Tactical division are in fact employed in the real world world tactically. Much equipment (red dots, comps, etc. etc.) seems to filter down from Open to the "real world." This would seem to indicate the need to for constant flexibility in defining the classes. But change is expensive to the competitor.

I am for real distinctions between the classes. Clearly many see Tactical division as a place where equipment used in the real world should be employed. There's nothing wrong with that point of view but what if the latest FBIHRT/Spetnatz/CAG/SEAL TEAM 1,000,000 hostage rescue gun is a highcap compensated 9X23 with a Dr. Optic. Should it then be allowed in Tactical class? If the equipment is the same or nearly the same what's the point of having seperate divisions. For example, I think USPSA Limited ought to be iron sighted rifle, Limited 10 or Production pistol and Pump shotgun - but this debate is about Rocky Mountain 3 Gun.

So I would exclude bipods from Tactical (even though they have a "tactical" purpose). Same with multiple sights (iron or optic) on Tactical rifles even though they may have a place in the "tactical" world. So I would not mind a mag capacity limit in Tactical be it 30 or 40 rounds - just to make the division different not because a Beta is not appropriate to employ in the real world - whereever that is.

I would however require that a sling be on a Tactical rifle AT ALL times because I think it's "tactical" to do so.

I would not require power factors in Tactical simply for the ease of match management.

I would not allow auto shotguns in He Man. Pump only. Allowing pumps and auto shotguns and then scoped and iron rifles introduces far too much diversity within the division. As a competitor, I would closely monitor who is shooting what and I would sign up for which ever equipment gave me the best advantage (for me probably pump shotgun and Iron rifle). So I could possibly scoop up a whole bunch of match points by swimming in a smaller pond. That would not be fair to the majority of shooters who had to slug it out shooting auto shotgun and scoped rifle.

You guys are proposing some real power factors for rifles! Just make it so a 147 ball can easily make it.

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Yes please, as a Heavy Metalist who uses 1981 Argentine Mil-Surp 144 grain ball let us not get carried away with whopping over the top PF's My ammo makes 340 (the old rifle major) just fine. The Blazer 230 and Fiocchi 1560 fps slugs that I employ are He -Man enough thank you.

PK

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"The game will tilt towards the people who have the best toys and $. "

Actually the people that consistently win, shoot better and put more work into it than the people that lose. FYI almost any sport is won by someone with the time, money, and dedication to do what it takes to win.

"IMHO, if you are going to allow the shooter to transition to their handgun, due to malfunctions or ammo limitations, then something should be done to keep the GAMERS from taking advantage of the situation."

I love the Gamer tag. Call it what you want and be bitter about it. If it is inside of the ruleset it is legal. Just because someone didn't think about it before hand doesn't mean its bad.

Also, why not let the shooters shoot what they want and decide what gun they want to shoot on a course of fire? OMG freestyle shooting??? Better watch out, that allows creativity and the GAMERS will probably win even more matches - wait umm they win all of them now.

The discussion about cost and the different divisions is rather pointless. How much more does 308 and 45 ammo cost? Bet it wouldn't take long to offset the cost of going to open. An interesting little note: The difference between Open and Limited guns in USPSA is generally around $400 (scope/comp). At about 10-12K rounds, open is cheaper to shoot because the bullets cost $35 less a thousand (jacketed).

We could always just include the price of a trophy in everybody's entry fee then all divisions, special categories, etc. would be covered.

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Matt made a good point re. transitioning to sidearm. I concur that ammo limitation should not be allowed as a reason for transition. That also would solve the 'I forgot to bring slugs' excuse :P

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Wow- since we're going to scope He-man and tactical iron since the military does it, does that mean I can use scopes for DCM?

Irons are a challenge. It's hard and not everyone can do it- that's the point. Glass takes a good part of the challenge out. I'm all for allowing it as a seperate class, division or whatever in addition to an iron-sighted equivalent. Getting rid of Irons, though, is getting a bit "common man" -ish, as Col. Cooper might say.

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Also, why not let the shooters shoot what they want and decide what gun they want to shoot on a course of fire? OMG freestyle shooting??? Better watch out, that allows creativity and the GAMERS will probably win even more matches - wait umm they win all of them now.

I agree with you on letting shooters decide what guns they want to use on a course of fire...this would make competitions more interesting IMHO as there are now many more different ways to solve the same problem. We have a few stages planned for the Waco match this year, that will be like this.

The only limitations would be steel targets under X yards may only be shot with pistol calibers or shot, steel targets over X yards may be shot with rifle or slug. Paper targets could be shot with slug, pistol, or rifle (so you don't have to replace them every other shooter if blasted with bird or buck shot).

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We could always just include the price of a trophy in everybody's entry fee then all divisions, special categories, etc. would be covered.

NO! This is not the public school system where 'everyone needs to feel like a winner'. In life there are losers and sometimes, as much as we may hate it, it may be us. Live with it.

Guy Hawkins

P.S. I still love you Matt.............. LOL!

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Guy, I hope you sensed the sarcasm in my statement. :D It seems to me sometimes that all people want is another class to get a different trophy or something since they may not win the class they are in.

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Guy, I hope you sensed the sarcasm in my statement.  :D It seems to me sometimes that all people want is another class to get a different trophy or something since they may not win the class they are in.

I am with you brother, I just felt I needed to make the point clearer.........

Guy Hawkins

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I'm not too thrilled with the ability to transition to pistol if your rifle/shotgun "goes down."

It can cause safety problems (as already noted) and can limit stage design. If you were able to transition to your pistol on stage 8 you would have been able to shoot those clays up on the ridge with a pistol. Yah the pistol bullets could have been stopped by the trees, but if it went through the foliage who the heck knows how far and where it would have come down? The backstop would have been inadequate and that stage would have never been.

Frankly I think it's a gimmick. If the rule goes through... a firearm "going down" needs to be defined.

Can you transition if your longgun momentarily runs out of ammo? In the real world the New York reload is very tactical.

Can you transition if the longgun has a stovepipe (relatively easily to fix)?

What do you do with the longgun when you transition? Can you just drop it on the ground and go on your merry way with your pistol? I mean afterall it is "down". In the real world would you retain that puppy in the heat of the moment? Or would you ditch it?

If the rule passes I think it needs to be stated that you can't do transitions in all the stages. Only specific stages where it is deemed safe to use the pistol on all the targets.

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I think the solution may be simpler than we we think. Some of you have kind of skirted around an idea that started to gel last night... How about this for divisions:

- Open (same basic rules and equipment "limitations" as we have now)

- Tactical Scoped (1 optic, maybe a 30-round mag limit if we're feeling fiesty, limit on comp size, etc)

- Tactical Iron (basically, the same as TS, but no scope)

Keep the shotgun and pistol requirements the same for each division.

What? No He-Man? Easy... power factor will do that. In each division, allow for the .30 cal (or bigger) guys to shoot major, which means only one hit per paper target to neutralize vs. 2 hits for those who prefer to run an AR or other small caliber rifle.

This way, anyone wanting to shoot their M1A, HK91, AR-10 or whatever can pimp it out appropriately for the division they want to run in and not be constrained by the current He-Man requirements.

It might even be amusing to have a fourth division. Not sure what to name it, but let's just call it "Old School" for now:

- Rifles limited to designs made before 1945 (Garands, M1 Carbines, etc)

- Pump shotguns only (1897, Model 12, etc)

- 1911 single stack in .45 (with mag limits) or a 6-shot revolver.

The only thing I would maybe see as an exception to the rifle limit is to allow iron sighted ARs with 20-round mags only. Could be a hoot, but realistically I wouldn't see many interested in this division.

-Greg

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Again what this comes down to: Is this a game or are we supposed to be training for some type of real life encounter where we are attacked by 18 to 20 "bad guys".

Lets be realistic, we all do this because it is fun, and if you take that away, why would we do it.

I, of course, say leave things the way they are. Make the shooter responsible for their own stuff. Give them the rules and let them see what they can do. And I am with Matt about allowing the shooter to choose which gun they want to shoot. The first year of this match, there were a couple of stages that allowed that and it made it fun.

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why do we have to add or delete anything!!!!!! scopes in he-man okay they already use sti's,glocks,etc.not a milspec 45 with no beavertail. i was at the first three gun nationals where the "GAMERS" showed up with 24" bipods for sitting and 36" bipods for kneeling. i did not talk to ONE person who was not having the time of their life!!!!!! my squad had some of the top iron sight shooters 2 of which sacrifed a lot of money and time to travel from london to shoot this match because the are not allowed own rifles and pistols. if it aint broke don't fix it pay your money pick your cards and play the game. if you don't like the rules shoot cowboy action they have a class for everything including bestdressed

curly

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Here is my 2 cents:

1) Tactical Iron

Keep it. It allows a fair playing field.

2) Open

Keep it but do not change anything for them.

3) Pistols On at All times

Yes!

4) He Man Scopes

Yes. A scope is important for those of us that do not have the vision necessary for iron sights.

5) He Man Light

He Man alone should have a tested power factor. You could use the major power factors of IPSC.

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Just my thoughts:

1. Keep Open Division....that is just more people to enjoy the match....we do not want to alienate the open people that have shot the match from its birth 3 years ago and have supported it......that is all these guys shoot and they like it.

2. Classes I would like to see them as follows:

Open

He-man/iron sights

He-oldman/one optic (this one is for you benny;)

Tactical Iron

Tactical Scope (one optic)

All separate prize tables and plaques and scores for each class.....yes 5 tables.

3. NO BIPODS for he-man or tactical

4. Slings on ALL classes of rifles - I could live with that.

5. Wearing your pistol during the entire match - not a problem.....and it must be hot during your coarse you are firing and you can transition to it at will during the coarse of fire.

6. Power factors......If you do it for one, you do it for ALL CLASSES and it will be strictly enforced. If you want to go by weights.....what is the point....the guys loading the 110gr's in there .308 will just make a sweet load with your minimum you set....... 45acp is 45acp........308 is 308. if the guys want to hand load, let them...it is there money and time.

7. Shotgun barrel length rule for Tactical/he-man classes......I will have to agree......who cares what the barrel length is....as long as they can only start with 9 rounds in the gun. I was shocked to see the rule change this year for tactical class.......my benelli was legal one year the next it is banned due to the 18.5" barrel with a 8 shot tube sticking out. It did not matter about the barrel....the thing will only hold 9.

8. As for added subclasses for plaques only......no big deal.

I loved the match.....everyone was friendly and helpful....(shooters and staff).

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KellyN....I got one thing to say to you...RAT MEAT!

If you want to keep a nice distinction to Open/Tactical...Make people shooting Tactical wear Armor and tac-gear (I do and let me tell you, the way the SAPI plate cuts into my kidney feels GREAT!).

Religious Shooter... As far as shooting in open class with limited guns.. OK, I do it all the time. Some of you people need to stop getting your panties so wound up with all these nit-picky rules and just SHOOT! Hell most of the time I show up and just have the person at sign in tell me where what I brought/wore puts me and a lot of times it puts me in open. Why the fear of a hot pistol? if the match is set up with that in mind, it's no worries. Someone puts a round into their leg because they have a un-safe gun (2lbs. trigger), good for them, hope they get the hell out of the gene pool.

Round limitations… This has always struck me a dumb. Higher-cap rifle mags generally are just crap. If someone wants to try and juice that little edge at the risk of their gun crapping the bed, let them. Also, if a guy wants to run a 26” shotguns barrel with a mag-tube that is just as long, fine, put in stages that require then to crawl through a barrel or navigate a hall. If they can do it without stabbing themselves in the face with their mega-mag-tube, well good for them, they are the victory. If a guy wants to use G-18 mags (32 rnd) in his gun, so what? I get my ass whipped by Dino-Riders shooting 8rnd 1911’s all the time, letting a guy suck with more bullets doesn’t make him, suck any less.

This is just how I see it, but then again, I’m the kind of guy who shoots 3-gun matches with a Bren while wearing a kilt….

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- Eliminate Open Class (opposition to this has been strong from moment we mentioned it).

Keep it.....I do agree that we need an unlimited class....one thing that I personally know of that came out of this class recently is the use of small red dot scopes on top of ACOG's and scopes being used in the military. Open Class....can be and is a test bed for many things.....saving lives (well OUR boys lives) is a good thing :)

- Eliminate Tactical-Iron Sub-Class (we only had 22 this year).

I ran the original DPMS Tri-Gun Match and not totally understanding the SOF scoring system I ended up with a total of 3 divisions that year TI, TO and Open, there was no He-Man the first year. I guess in todays langauge that would mean TI, TO, Open and He-Man....with 4 prize tables. We just split up the prizes according to the number in each division.

- Add Tactical/Iron Category (like lady's, military, senior, etc.)

Would be a mute issue then

- Allow any single optic in He-Man Class (the single most requested change request that we get from shooters).

Personally, I think a good idea, but just my opinion....I shoot He-Man and my eyes are turning worse each year

- Add He-Man/Iron Category

sure....ok, I do think that breaking HE-MAN into 2 divisions would not be good...unless we had lots more shooting this (that coming fromt he stand point of a stand alone or SOF style of scoring).

- Allow bi-bods on Tactical and He-Man rifles

NO....in a way, we have so many different equipment rules and a lot of people that shoot this match and others. I would like to see the basic equipment rules for all the matches to be basically the same (IE...USPSA, DPMS, SSM3G, etc.) This way....people could always use the same equipment for any match.

- Require power factor or bullet weight minimums for He-Man (140 grain rifle and 200 (or 230) grain pistol)

I am a He-Man Light, only because the present rules allow for it. I would be happy to incorporate this rule. Power Factors IMHO are a joke. You will only catch the honest ones for the pistol. As far far as Rifle goes.....you need to make the bullet go a certain speed so that you do not to screw so much with your tajectory. IE....try shooting a 220 rifle round going 1000fps at targets from 50 to 300 yards sometime in a stage. Your Rifle ammo....for the most part NEEDS to be going something like 2650fps min. I do however believe some ball ammo is somewhat less than that.

- Require handgun to be worn on all stages

eh.....either way, I guess I would rather not (as it is a game) but won't complain if it is required, I will adapt.

- Require slings on rifles

sure.....does'nt mean I have to use it. And...if you have a stage that takes advantage of a sling.....I WILL USE IT

- Eliminate shotgun barrel and magazine tube length restrictions (but retain 9 round max at start)

yes.....actually though....put a 9 round max limit on tactical/HE-MAN shotguns. OR maybe as a bonus (IMHO ?) if you do have a 22" barrel and a mag tube that is 1" longer....no round restriction.....yes I can load up with 10....and that is why I said it, and yes it is kinda selfish :)

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Man I'm telling ya... make the Cav Arms match have only one division (Open) and see how it goes. It would be cool to see what would happen.

I for one don't wanna drive 1000 miles one way and have to shoot my "Tactical" gear against Open shooters.

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If there will be only one class...it would have to be "Trooper" and we might very well do that for 2006

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