Rocky Mtn 3 Gun Proposals

[kurtm]

Iron sights have an advantage for scoring?? Well last time I checked I found Iron to be a hotly contested class, and this time all were healthy . Does anyone really think a good iron sight shooter can't shoot a scope as well or better?? Keep Iron. IPSC has USPSA has and so should IMGA. A really good point was made that Iron is a cheap entry class, and for that reason alone it is worth keeping.

Bipod, doesn't matter as the stage will always dictate if it can be used or not, and I know that if it is changed it will have to be on the rifle for the whole match, not just for the stages that the shooter wants.

Slings are legal at this time already.

Pistol, all the time, hot and ready to go.

Shotgun, any length and 9 rounds only at start.

Optics in he-man and Iron and break them out like it is done now for tactical.

A 12 gage is manly already, it shouldn't have to be a pump.

Bruce:

Kelly is just posting what was being discussed, he isn't conected with RM3G in any way other than kicking butt and taking names this year as a competitor. GREAT JOB KELLY!! and the " green" is great, thank you so much!!!

It was a great match. Good job to all involved! KURT MILLER

[GeneRagulsky]

I enjoy shooting open. It would make it really hard to go back to this match if it was done away with. I think it should be up to me, the shooter, to be responsible for my equipment. If the Match Director say that I have to crawl through a mud puddle with my pistol on, I will be ready. But that can only happen if the MD gives a little heads up notice as to what to expect for next year. I am not here to wine, I am here to shoot and push Matt to the win.

[bgary]

Kelly is just posting what was being discussed, he isn't conected with RM3G in any way

Yeah, I know. But I've never met you or Blaine, and rather than just shove my way into the conversation I kinda thought that Kelly might be willing to do an "introduction".

Bruce

[smokshwn]

Not to be too arguementative, but if Tactical were to be combined I don't buy the economics arguement for Tactical Irons. $50 for a scope (simmons pro diamond at CDNN) and $18 for rings (leupold see throughs at Wal Mart) doesn't seem like a viable arguement when the match fee was nearly 3 times that amount. Not to mention food, lodging, ammo, travel etc.

Craig

[bigbrowndog]

when i got home after 10 hours of driving and thinking, (yes i can have intelligent thoughts) 2 things were on my mind. 1) how pissed was the dog gonna be for me not taking him to RM3G and 2) what would i be shooting next year, given the statements made at the awards.

someone made the statment that they should let auto shotguns into he-man, my thoughts were have two he-man divisions. he-man traditional and he-man modern. i spoke briefly with eric miller and others about it and they seemed to like the idea. in traditional you shoot pump shotgun and irons, in modern you shoot optics and autos.

as for power factors i agree with kellyn, bullet weight is not the way to go. it seems that he-man is where alot of tact iron shooters are moving to, and that class gets bigger while tact iron gets smaller.

as for pistols on at all times, i agree with it so long as if the stage is not a pistol stage, then the pistol should be chamber empty.

dropping tact-iron should not be a consideration, go with a set number of competitors needed to recognize the class, and if its not met then allow for a high shooter and thats it.

i think limiting rounds in tactical class should be considered, it seems to have been received well in he-man, and i think 30 rounds would be a good start. (this in spite of the fact that i do shoot a beta, occassionaly)

my brain can't remember any of the other items, so i'll shut up, except to say that whatever happens i'll be back next year. trapr

[SinistralRifleman]

Limiting feeding device capacity for rifle in tactical scope would be stupid. Higher capacity feeding devices have their own limitations, one of them being decreased reliability. Joe Sledge told me half the people that shot his stage using Beta Mags, had constant malfunctions....this is in line with my personal experience with Beta Mags as well. If you want to gamble and use equipment that is less reliable, that is up to you.

This entire argument about what should and shouldn't be allowed in various classess is just pushing me to believe there shouldn't be any classess. You show up and shoot what you have and you place based on your level of skill with the equipment you are using. I would perhaps give secondary awards to the fastest pump gun shooter, iron sight shooter, and Battle Rifle cartrdige shooter...other placements would simply be overall results only. I've seen the results from our local matches where Tactical Iron shooters beat Open class shooters regularly. This strongly leads me to believe that skill matters much more than equipment.

I would be all for allowing anyone shooting a real battle rifle cartrdige, i.e. 7.62 NATO, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, etc. only having to put one round anywhere on a paper target to consider it neutralized...that's the only distinction I would make in equipment. All other differences between firearms, calibers, sights, accessories, etc. may or may not be an advantage at all based upon stage design.

[rmfield]

FYI, here is the "official list" of rule changes for the 2006 RM3G that we are pondering, some more seriously than others:

- Eliminate Open Class (opposition to this has been strong from moment we mentioned it).

- Eliminate Tactical-Iron Sub-Class (we only had 22 this year).

- Add Tactical/Iron Category (like lady's, military, senior, etc.)

- Allow any single optic in He-Man Class (the single most requested change request that we get from shooters).

- Add He-Man/Iron Category

- Allow bi-bods on Tactical and He-Man rifles

- Require power factor or bullet weight minimums for He-Man (140 grain rifle and 200 (or 230) grain pistol)

- Require handgun to be worn on all stages

- Require slings on rifles

- Eliminate shotgun barrel and magazine tube length restrictions (but retain 9 round max at start)

It is important to note that this is a list of things that we are thinking about and that the reason Blane put it out there was to stir up your input. Many of these potential rule changes are old SOF traditions. We appreciate your interest thus far and welcome more thoughts and ideas. You can send us your thoughts at jprm3g@aol.com if the BE forum is not where you want to express yourself.

RM3G

[Ty Gentry]

I love this sport.

I started shooting two years ago. I looked around and picked the class/gear I wanted to play with and started playing. I think there should always be at least three divisions because I think it will draw in more shooters that way. More options. More industry participation.

Open class (real world). What can you possibly use or do to your gear to gain an advantage over the other competitors (enemy)? This is our way of playing the arms race. I think it has to be here. Many of the inovations tested hear are saving our soldiers lives. I don't play here but I do like to watch.

Scoped vs iron. I think they should be treated differntly. I realize in the real world we are going to optics on almost everything but this is for fun. Competitors should be alowed to pick the gear/class they want to play in and compete with like competitors.

He man. Its he man. Shoot the man ammo. Optics-see above. Pump vs auto- if there are enough to split them, then do so. If not, put them together and pump it fast.

Limited vs tactical. Sorry, I don't understand the difference.

This was the best match I have ever been to and I hope I don't ever have to miss this one. What ever you do with classes\divisions, I will pick one and play.

Thank you to all who made this possible.

ty

[Religious Shooter]

Limiting feeding device capacity for rifle in tactical scope would be stupid...

This entire argument about what should and shouldn't be allowed in various classess is just pushing me to believe there shouldn't be any classess...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you got juice with the Cav Arms match in Texas. Why not for next year you guys have no divisions and see how it goes? Compare your turn-out this and past years' matches with the next one in 2006. The results would be interesting to see.

There are round limitations with Tactical shotgun and He-Man rifle. I don't see why it would be "stupid" to limit the rounds in Tactical rifle.

[Zak Smith]

In total-time matches like Tiger Valley, I could see Tec-Loaders on the shotgun being the biggest advantage, considering how much time is spent loading the shotgun.

[Zak Smith]

I don't see why it would be "stupid" to limit the rounds in Tactical rifle.

Ok, why should they be limited to 30 rounds?

[kurtm]

BGARY:

You HAVE met me. I sold a DPMS Panther .308 to you and we talked at last years Nationals. That Kurt Miller is this Kurt Miller who posts under the obtruse name of KURTM ( kind of imaginitive don't you think ).

Add a class of Iron ( he-man) and take one away?? ( tac iron ). Interesting!

I kind of like the idea of run what you brung. Your rifle could be all that it could be. , same with pistol and shotgun, dots, comps, big mags, and all the rest. I don't buy into the idea that any class is expensive, a couple of 33 round Glock mags, some cheap 40 round AR mags, a few of those Daisy reflex sights and you are good to go! Put a floor on what is allowed and stand back, that way we can see what really works. I have a sneeking feeling that everyone could be happy KURTM

[Religious Shooter]

I don't see why it would be "stupid" to limit the rounds in Tactical rifle.

Ok, why should they be limited to 30 rounds?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Limit it for differentation and consistency.

In open pistol more rounds are allowed vs. Tactical.

In open shotgun more rounds are allowed vs. Tactical.

In open rifle... the same # of rounds are allowed???

If you want to limit it to 45 rounds... fine with me.

But 30 is just more logical (if you are going to limit it) since 30 rounds is what the standard AR15/M16 magazine holds.

Look at He-man. Why 20? Because 20 is what the standard load is for the standard M1A.

[bgary]

we talked at last years Nationals

Agggh, you're right. I forgot all about meeting you there (actually, that match was such a cluster in so many ways, it is sort of a blur. I came home with about 10 pages of notes of things that USPSA needed to fix before doing another 3-gun Nationals).

Bruce (the best thing about losing your memory is you get to make new friends every day ;-)

[SinistralRifleman]

Well you got juice with the Cav Arms match in Texas.  Why not for next year you guys have no divisions and see how it goes?  Compare your turn-out this and past years' matches with the next one in 2006.  The results would be interesting to see.

My point was more so that arguing over what equipment should be in various divisions is more likely to give yourself a aneurism than actually accomplish anything.

As it is right now most of the sign ups for our match are in Tactical Scope, followed by Trooper Class as a close second....the number of shooters signed up in Open and Tactical Iron is very small. This may change as more people send in applications (I think many were waiting until after RM3G to get around to it from what I heard them say at the match)...but I think it to be unlikely. People who go to shoot for fun and the "pursuit of excellence" (to steal the phrase from John of JP) will shoot regardless of the classes, divisions, or categories available.

In arguing over equipment divisions like we are, I think we are in a way saying equipment is more important than skill. Sometimes I think we use these equipment divisions as a way to keep people of better skill from "officially" beating us...if an Iron sight shooter does better than an tac scope shooter, or an open class shooter what does that say? I think it says equipment really doesn't matter as much as skill. KellyN regularly trounces us all at local matches shooting iron sights against scoped or open rifles and shotguns. I believe I heard from the Stage 8 ROs that KurtM came within 3 seconds of the fastest open class time on that stage loading shotshells by hand?....we'll have to wait for the results to see.

I'd be just as content if the match results listed all the equipment a shooter used, as I am now with different divisions.

There are round limitations with Tactical shotgun and He-Man rifle.  I don't see why it would be "stupid" to limit the rounds in Tactical rifle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because as I said, it self regulates...is a Beta Mag an advantage when the feed tower cracks or it doesn't feed as fast as the bolt cycles causing malfunctions? If someone wants to put the effort into making one work reliably and rolling the dice every time they shoot, I say let them.

[Religious Shooter]

Because as I said, it self regulates...is a Beta Mag an advantage when the feed tower cracks or it doesn't feed as fast as the bolt cycles causing malfunctions?  If someone wants to put the effort into making one work reliably and rolling the dice every time they shoot, I say let them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True. But if you use the same logic... then we shouldn't have any round limitations either in our shotguns, pistols and He-Man rifle.

I would rather not have that happen.

People who go to shoot for fun and the "pursuit of excellence" (to steal the phrase from John of JP) will shoot regardless of the classes, divisions, or categories available.

Say there are two matches that are equal in every respect (both of equal fun, distance from home, etc.). The only difference is one match has only ONE division. While the other has multiple divisions (to stack the cards... not too many, not too little, but just the right amount). I'd be willing to bet that the latter would draw more shooters.

I plan to go back to RM3G next year. If they all of a sudden only had one division, or even two (Open and HM as suggested) I would not go back. I can have my "pursuit of excellence" in a more hospitable (to my equipment level) match.

For me the "pursuit" entails that the equipment I have can win. I'm not losing because of my equipment. I'm losing because I suck.

A match with no divisions is not a match that is all about skill. The game will tilt towards the people who have the best toys and $. Having well sorted divisions allows us to be closer to having it be about skill at arms and not about equipment.

Nationals are coming up. Shoot Open using L10/Tactical/Limited gear. You can get a taste of how the "pursuit" can sour if you don't have the right gear and/or $.

[George]

- Eliminate Open Class (opposition to this has been strong from moment we mentioned it).

- Eliminate Tactical-Iron Sub-Class (we only had 22 this year).

- Add Tactical/Iron Category (like lady's, military, senior, etc.)

- Allow any single optic in He-Man Class (the single most requested change request that we get from shooters).

- Add He-Man/Iron Category

- Allow bi-bods on Tactical and He-Man rifles

- Require power factor or bullet weight minimums for He-Man (140 grain rifle and 200 (or 230) grain pistol)

- Require handgun to be worn on all stages

- Require slings on rifles

- Eliminate shotgun barrel and magazine tube length restrictions (but retain 9 round max at start)

******************************

My .025 in response.

- Keep Open. Formula One is always the cool divison!

- Iron has to have a home IMO. Bruce Gary said it best when he stated the USPSA way on this

- High Iron is fine as an additional perk here

- Bruce Gary once again laid out a great road to HM allowing sub-categories in his post

- HM Iron is moot if you follow BG's options

- In Open, a bipod should be at the shooters discretion always. In T, L & HM, it should stay on at all times if it is used at all. Pay to play I say!

- PF for HM should be enforced with an iron fist. PF should be 175 for Pistol, 575 for Shotgun and 390 for rifle PERIOD

- Allow a handgun to be worn at all times "if" the competitor wishes to. It should NEVER get hotted up at the LAMR, or we might as well keep the rifles and shotguns hot all the time too!

- "Allow" slings on/off rifles at competitors discretion. Design stages where no sling is a disadvantage if you want folks to use them, but do not mandate things like this.

- Yes, length rules have no place in the shotgun rules. Just limit the rounds allowed according to division (IMO, HM should be limited to 6 max at any time in pump guns!).

--

Regards,

[nm3gnr]

Hello to All ! What a great match !

My .02 cents may not be worth much, but here it goes.

Leave open alone. If it endagers 180 with pistol loaded, go to nothing in chamber for all divisions on pistol.

Leave tactical alone. no bipods, sling only, irons ok, no mag limit. ( I do not own anything more than 30 rnd mags )

The biggest request I have heard is to change He Man. ( which I don't shoot in )

Is to add scope and allow auto shotgun.

Maybe running He Man like tactical class and put all together at end like tactical will be the way to go.

I would hate to see competitors not attend this match because of a big equipment change.

Power factor ok, but use the chrono on all, not just the top competitors.

[P.E. Kelley]

Here is why IMHO scored separately and then combined is not the proper method in the sprit of fair chase:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iron sight shooter “A” works his butt off against (and only against) the other top Iron guys and wins rifle stage #1 with a time of 30 seconds and for that earns 100 points (100%)

Iron shooter “B” places second with a time of 37.5 and picks up 80 points (80%)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scope / Tactical shooter “A” works his butt off against (and only against) the other top scope / tact guys and he too wins rifle stage #1 with a time of 25 seconds and for that earns 100 points (100%)

Scope / Tactical shooter “B” places second with a time of 30 and picks up 83.3 points (83.3%)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the match is over and the stats people combine the Iron group with the Scope group.

Iron “A” gets 100 points

Scope /Tact “A” get 100 points

They tie for first yet the scope guy shot a 16.7 percent better score!

Scope / Tact “B” shoots the SAME score as the Iron “A” and gets 16.7% fewer points!

Iron “B” is happy to pick up 80 points while shooting 66.7% of the scope / tact guys score.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So…..I say score the match separately without combining and if not enough Irons show up for a stand alone division then only award the “high iron”

Or, if we want to have one winner then run it heads up with only one stage winner not multiple.

Scoring separately and combining is not a true representation of who won.

Heck, run it all heads up then separate out the divisions and award as appropriate. This method can alter placement within a division as compared to scored separately but if you want to know how you faired overall then this is the only true test.

This is how SOF scored and I think RM3gun and SMM3gun scored and combined the Iron and Scope/ Tactical into one division.

This is a great forum

The RM3gun was a great match!!!

Thanks

PK

[gl]

I believe we should score it heads up and keep iron sight class. They are more difficult to shoot and it should be recognized (no argument can be made that they are equal because if that was the case we would not have developed scopes!). Seperate out the tactical scope, tactical iron, he-man, open and any other classes after the match.

Guy Hawkins

A small addition: I also think that tactical scope should be allowed to have a second optic (like a j-point) since they are 'tactical' because they are in use now.

NO BIPOD!!!!!

[outerlimits]

FYI, here is the "official list" of rule changes for the 2006 RM3G that we are pondering, some more seriously than others:

- Allow bi-bods on Tactical and He-Man rifles

the line between tactical and open would be nil (it already is, IMHO). flame suit on

[bigbrowndog]

the subject of running a stage with your pistol on and hot so as to be able to transition to it in the event that you wanted to or had to was brought up.

how much easier is it to shoot stage 8 at this years match not having to reload, i know i can shoot a handgun much faster and reload much faster than i can with a shotgun. and the difficulty of the clays, would not compensate for the ability to reload and shoot faster.

IMHO, if you are going to allow the shooter to transition to their handgun, due to malfunctions or ammo limitations, then something should be done to keep the GAMERS from taking advantage of the situation.

trapr

[Cactustactical]

Eliminate Open Class (opposition to this has been strong from moment we mentioned it).

No opinion

- Eliminate Tactical-Iron Sub-Class (we only had 22 this year)

Keep it as an option. It is a more challenging class than using a scope, so IMO, that is why there are fewer people in it. But, that does not lessen the need for it.

- Add Tactical/Iron Category (like lady's, military, senior, etc.)

No, I like it as a class.

- Allow any single optic in He-Man Class (the single most requested change request that we get from shooters).

Yes, why not? He Man was started to recognize 45 acp, 12 gauge and heavier rifle calibers. Why not let someone use a scope? The sights on most 308 battle rifles are not good enough for precision work, so why penalize them?

- Add He-Man/Iron Category

If we have a scope class in he man, why not an iron class?

- Allow bi-bods on Tactical and He-Man rifles

Yes, of course, yes. If anyone thinks those in law enforcement and military do not use bipods, we need to talk. Those professions are the true definitions of tactical usage, not some artificial definition such as we have today.

- Require power factor or bullet weight minimums for He-Man (140 grain rifle and 200 (or 230) grain pistol)

No opinion.

- Require handgun to be worn on all stages

yes, so that a stage can be completed if another firearm goes down.

- Require slings on rifles

Why? Are we thinking about doing away with downing of rifles when we are done with it? Why else would you need a sling unless you carry it with you through a complete stage? If a sling is required on a rifle, why not on a shotgun also?

- Eliminate shotgun barrel and magazine tube length restrictions (but retain 9 round max at start)

I dunno. If someone wants to use a 28 inch barrel on a hoser, run and gun course, let 'em. But, why would they want to? Also, this rule change would put more responsibility on the RO to make sure that the gun is only loaded to the legal capacity at the start of the stage. But, of course, no one would slip and load too many shells, would they?

[PacMan]

IMHO, if you are going to allow the shooter to transition to their handgun, due to malfunctions or ammo limitations, then something should be done to keep the GAMERS from taking advantage of the situation.

trapr

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I think we can handle the 'gamers' If someone switches to sidearm and down his/her shotgun or rifle to finish the course with sidearm, I would certainly do the following:

1) Verify that the primary weapon is inoperable.

2) If I can make it goes bang safely, then the competitor (now labeled as 'gamer' ) would be hammered with a procedural for every shot fired with the sidearm.

[SinistralRifleman]

Nationals are coming up.  Shoot Open using L10/Tactical/Limited gear.  You can get a taste of how the "pursuit" can sour if you don't have the right gear and/or $.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't shoot USPSA matches, but I often shoot open class at 3 gun or multi-gun matches that don't have trooper class, just so I can use whatever equipment I want to...that equipment typically being a bipod, or a dot sight on my shotgun. If I beat anyone in open class I usually think I am doing OK if I am not running completely open equipment.

One of my friends shot Open at RM3G this year so he could use his SPRish rifle (dual optics and bipod), his other two guns were a stock Glock 17 and a Remington 870 with Iron sights. He still beat some people in Open...a job well done if they're using Dot Sighted Comped Pistols and Tec-Loaders on their shotguns.

the subject of running a stage with your pistol on and hot so as to be able to transition to it in the event that you wanted to or had to was brought up. 

how much easier is it to shoot stage 8 at this years match not having to reload, i know i can shoot a handgun much faster and reload much faster than i can with a shotgun. and the difficulty of the clays, would not compensate for the ability to reload and shoot faster.

IMHO, if you are going to allow the shooter to transition to their handgun, due to malfunctions or ammo limitations, then something should be done to keep the GAMERS from taking advantage of the situation.

trapr

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Transitioning should not be allowed because someone failed to carry enough ammunition during the stage

Transitioning to gain an unfair competitive advantage should also not be allowed...your gun should really be broken, blown up, or otherwise inoperable to warrant changing to the other gun.

The other option is to design stages that are flexible and allow the shooter to play to their strengths. Require a minimum number of shot shells fired, at which point the shooter can switch to their sidearm if they so choose...or designate all clays must be engaged with shot, all steel targets can be engaged with pistol or shot.