RJH Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said: Young whippersnappers need safe spaces. I told you, just stay off his lawn. I don't think so in this case, he seems a prime safe space candidate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, RJH said: Right, i actually just double checked the rules and found nothing to back up his statment, looks like fake news to me. He really needs that safe space...... 5.2.1.6 If stored in a mobile rack or carrier, the PCC must be reasonably vertical whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Uncased horizontal carry/transport is prohibited. The muzzle of any such firearm, if oriented down, must point to a spot within 3 feet of the conveyance. If pointed up, it must be oriented such that a person walking around the conveyance will not be covered by the muzzle if they are more than 3 feet away from the conveyance. All such measurements shall be taken while the conveyance is situated on flat, level ground. In the event of disagreement on how the firearm is being transported, the Range Master shall be the final authority as to the acceptability of such orientation. I understand this to mean if you push down on the handle of your stroller then the muzzle, if pointing down, will no longer be pointing down. Not only would that make the gun not properly stored on the cart but it could easily sweep any number of shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 30 minutes ago, Sarge said: 5.2.1.6 If stored in a mobile rack or carrier, the PCC must be reasonably vertical whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Uncased horizontal carry/transport is prohibited. The muzzle of any such firearm, if oriented down, must point to a spot within 3 feet of the conveyance. If pointed up, it must be oriented such that a person walking around the conveyance will not be covered by the muzzle if they are more than 3 feet away from the conveyance. All such measurements shall be taken while the conveyance is situated on flat, level ground. In the event of disagreement on how the firearm is being transported, the Range Master shall be the final authority as to the acceptability of such orientation. I understand this to mean if you push down on the handle of your stroller then the muzzle, if pointing down, will no longer be pointing down. Not only would that make the gun not properly stored on the cart but it could easily sweep any number of shooters. Except that the measurements are to be taken on flat level ground and not while someone is pushing down on the handle, so what you understand doesn't seem to necessarily be in accordance with the rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 On 1/23/2019 at 7:47 PM, RJH said: Why the continued butthurt over pcc? I shot it enough to classify and will probably shoot it a couple more times this year cause i have some 9 ammo to burn, so while it ain't really my bag i don't hate it or anything. We have a few people who shoot it here and there at the local matches and they don't seem to slow anything down and our stage designs have changed basically 0 from when it was pistol only. So why all the pissing and moaning? If your matches have changed drastically or pcc shooters are taking some inordinately long time, maybe there is a match director issue? Idk, maybe because there are several 3gunners here it was not a big deal to add pccs. So are there any REAL issues that are coming up or is the pcc hate entirely emotionally based? No butthurt over pee see see, they need to learn to follow the rules and quit sweeping people. A guy last local match bagged his pee see see while people were down range and the m6zzle pointed downrange, they think it's ok, I asked him wtf he was doing, he said it's ok... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Last Fall I had a pistol shooter at a local match walk up and stop immediately in front of my Rugged Gear cart, He didn't know whose cart it belonged to since everyone in our squad was downrange scoring and taping, He could not wait to complain to our RO that he was being swept by a PCC. RO gave him a "can't fix stupid" look and walked away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, bret said: No butthurt over pee see see, they need to learn to follow the rules and quit sweeping people. A guy last local match bagged his pee see see while people were down range and the m6zzle pointed downrange, they think it's ok, I asked him wtf he was doing, he said it's ok... Agreed. Both PCC and pistol shooters need to learn the rules (and not just those rules concerning sweeping). We still get the occasional new shooter that doesn't have a clue and feels that they just need to be what they consider to be safe to get by. We still get the occasional newbie that waves a PCC around with no regard to other shooters just like we get the new pistol shooter that when asked "what kind of gun ya shooting" proudly pulls it out of the holster to show everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, bret said: No butthurt over pee see see, they need to learn to follow the rules and quit sweeping people. A guy last local match bagged his pee see see while people were down range and the m6zzle pointed downrange, they think it's ok, I asked him wtf he was doing, he said it's ok... Yeah cause i have never seen a pistol shooter unholster and lay his gun down on a table start with people down range, oh wait, there was a guy that dqed in my squad for that at a match just the other day. Unsafe doesn't just happen with pcc shooters. You and sarge can console each other in the new pcc safe space, i think uspsa will have to mandate them for yall lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said: Agreed. Both PCC and pistol shooters need to learn the rules (and not just those rules concerning sweeping). We still get the occasional new shooter that doesn't have a clue and feels that they just need to be what they consider to be safe to get by. We still get the occasional newbie that waves a PCC around with no regard to other shooters just like we get the new pistol shooter that when asked "what kind of gun ya shooting" proudly pulls it out of the holster to show everyone. This wasn't a newbie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, bret said: This wasn't a newbie... But he said it was OK !!! Hopefully he was not the RO. If the RO doesn't DQ him, it encourages him. I'm a PCC shooter and a bit insensitive to folks with a PCC that either don't know the rules or don't care to know the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 So we are into 4 pages of this and other than maybe a touch slower at make ready/ ulsc and that seems to be match/squad/ro/shooter dependent (kinda the same with pistol shooters), emotional responses of basically "i don't like pcc cause they are rifles/beat me/ make me feel threatened" are all we have. Pretty telling PS if a shooter is being unsafe dq him reguardless of what his gun is. Just follow the rules, idk why this is so hard. A few seem to be so emotionally invested in disliking pcc that they just can't let it go that it is a division, but it is, and yall would be much happier learning to roll with it cause it ain't going anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, Flatland Shooter said: But he said it was OK !!! Hopefully he was not the RO. If the RO doesn't DQ him, it encourages him. I'm a PCC shooter and a bit insensitive to folks with a PCC that either don't know the rules or don't care to know the rules. Self r.o. on the squads, one of the other guys that also shoots pee see see is just as bad as he is and an 'upper level' club guy... They both are recent Level 1 USPSA R.O. graduates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 minute ago, bret said: Self r.o. on the squads, one of the other guys that also shoots pee see see is just as bad as he is and an 'upper level' club guy... They both are recent Level 1 USPSA R.O. graduates. So you have an ro problem, not a pcc problem. I have seen it many times at many clubs, from ros trying to force intent when it was against the rules, to letting blatant safety infractions slide. All of which can ruin a good match. Hell, i just want shooters and ros to follow the rules and the shooters to help tape haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, bret said: Self r.o. on the squads, one of the other guys that also shoots pee see see is just as bad as he is and an 'upper level' club guy... They both are recent Level 1 USPSA R.O. graduates. I guess you can ask them to read the rules, If that don't work, you may need to read them the rules. By then it sounds like a job for the MD. And if the MD doesn't take it seriously, time to find a different match. By not correcting their "mistakes" no one helping them. As soon as they pull that crap at another club or a major match they can see just how far the "my home club allows me to do it" argument works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 49 minutes ago, RJH said: Except that the measurements are to be taken on flat level ground and not while someone is pushing down on the handle, so what you understand doesn't seem to necessarily be in accordance with the rules... Level ground does not equal level cart. Lifting the front of the cart raises the muzzle without question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Sarge said: Level ground does not equal level cart. Lifting the front of the cart raises the muzzle without question. How about the pistol competitor that sits down in a lawn chair with a holstered pistol? That will also raise the muzzle up, sometimes too much. My argument would be Rule 10.5.5.1 You can't sweep with a holstered gun so my argument is you cannot sweep with a properly carted PCC. "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7" Edited January 28, 2019 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said: How about the pistol competitor that sits down in a lawn chair with a holstered pistol? That will also raise the muzzle up, sometimes too much. My argument would be Rule 10.5.5.1 You can't sweep with a holstered gun so my argument is you cannot sweep with a properly carted PCC. Don't try to apply rules equally and logically, highly emotional anti pcc people's heads will explode haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said: How about the pistol competitor that sits down in a lawn chair with a holstered pistol? That will also raise the muzzle up, sometimes too much. My argument would be Rule 10.5.5.1 You can't sweep with a holstered gun so my argument is you cannot sweep with a properly carted PCC. I see the logic in this but it would mean a carted PCC is the same as a holstered Pistol. Then why would it need a flag? It's obvious a PCC is not considered the same as a pistol in most regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 minute ago, RJH said: Don't try to apply rules equally and logically, highly emotional anti pcc people's heads will explode haha Who is anti PCC? I just don't like guns pointed at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Sarge said: Then why would it need a flag? Unlike a holstered pistol, the carted PCC has the trigger exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sarge said: I just don't like guns pointed at me. To this we all agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: Young whippersnappers need safe spaces. I told you, just stay off his lawn. He might squirt you with a water hose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sarge said: Who is anti PCC? I just don't like guns pointed at me. Neither does anyone else and i have no issue with dqs for unsafe gun handling, etc. But I also don't like it when MDs/ROs/DNROI decide to make up rules that contradict the rule book, but maybe i am the only one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, RJH said: Neither does anyone else and i have no issue with dqs for unsafe gun handling, etc. But I also don't like it when MDs/ROs/DNROI decide to make up rules that contradict the rule book, but maybe i am the only one.... I am more about the rules being right, clear and followed than I ever am about a particular gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 Just now, Sarge said: I am more about the rules being right, clear and followed than I ever am about a particular gun. Well then a tilted cart wouldn't be a dq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazhi Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Why is no one making PCC holsters? Cover trigger guard. Once in the holster, it's just like any pistol in a holster - safe. Or just bag it. What's wrong with bagging the PCC after show clear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts