My PCC comparison, JP is worth it.

[ABQautoxer]

As someone new to the scene, I spent a ton of time reading all the posts here. I saw a theme over and over,  JP and Quarter Circle are the best. I tried to understand but some of the information was simply over my head. Over a relatively short period of time I bought four different PCCs: Scorpion Evo Carbine, Ruger PC9, Foxtrot Mike FM9, and most recently a JP GMR-15. I moded all but the FM9 towards PCC rules since the plan is to competed with them and figure out which we liked best after some tuning. Why 4? It's a little less crazy than it sounds. First there are two of us, myself and my short girlfriend. We both really liked the Scorpion so we knew going in it might not be right but it was one we wanted to own. The Ruger was for my to casually shoot PCC as a break from my plan to run Production this year. Then I screwed up and tried a bowling pin shoot with it and got hooked and here we are. With that out of the way, I just want to say I get it. I finally get it. The JP is an amazing PCC. Mine is nearly a ready rifle with just the roller trigger and its incredible how consistent it is and how much softer it shoots. I'm still figuring out which of the other 3 we like best, since the price point is much lower for the rest. Tomorrow we plan to compare the Scorpion which is my GF's favorite versus the JP and FM. If anyone's interested for an avg joe's opinion on non-tuned popular choices, I'll be glad to share. If not but you were like me wondering if the JP is worth the $, I would say the answer is definitely yes in my case.

[TNREDNECK]

I agree it’s just a BLAST to shoot the JP , mine has run flawlessly. It’s amazing to see others have so much trouble and spend so much to get there econo- PCC to run . Lol 

[ABQautoxer]

So far all have been perfect in terms of reliability but relatively small sample size of ammo through them. I will say so far the FM and JP had zero failures. We have shot even softer 150gr 870fps ammo no problem that the Ruger FTE'd on once in the same first 100 rounds. We'll shoot more tomorrow through them of various ammo to see how it goes. First USPSA competition, weather pending for us, will be the first weekend in February. Also worth mentioning, I really like the FM for the money. Nearly 1/3 the price and just and incredible value. What makes the JP so much better out of the box is that at 10yds, the dot never comes off the 3" target during recoil where the Ruger, Scorpion, and FM do. I'm sure I can get the FM to do it too, just a question of how much money and effort that will take and how/if it effects reliability. Since I like to tinker, I might find out and there is a lot of overhead in terms of money vs the JP's cost to get there. Meanwhile, I think I might try to take some weight off the JP. I was planning to immediately swap out the hand guards for the Smoke Composite products but I love the texture on the Rapid hand guard that I think I'll wait to see how I feel after competition.

[S&W686]

I have been shooting my JP GMR-15 for about a year now and I am having a blast. 

[Fo0]

Just ordered an Isler Carbon Fiber Handguard for my JP killer

[TNREDNECK]

I agree it’s just a BLAST to shoot the JP , mine has run flawlessly. It’s amazing to see others have so much trouble and spend so much to get there econo- PCC to run . Lol. (   Double post not sure why )

Edited January 19, 2019 by TNREDNECK

[TNREDNECK]

I ordered the smoke for mine last week, I also love the JP handguard it’s going to be a compromise for the weight loss .

If you order a smoke call them let them know your a competion shooter %20 discount , great people to deal with .

[Dirty_J]

A couple of our local JP shooting PCC GM's have recently ditched their GMR's for the Sig MPX. 

 

They are nice guns for sure, but there's only so much you can do with a straight blowback. 

 

 

[Fo0]

1 hour ago, TNREDNECK said:

I agree it’s just a BLAST to shoot the JP , mine has run flawlessly. It’s amazing to see others have so much trouble and spend so much to get there econo- PCC to run . Lol. (   Double post not sure why )

 

hows the smoke? any pictures of your setup

[Silverscooby27]

1 hour ago, Dirty_J said:

A couple of our local JP shooting PCC GM's have recently ditched their GMR's for the Sig MPX. 

 

They are nice guns for sure, but there's only so much you can do with a straight blowback. 

 

 

Well, if they made GM with them, I’d say they doin alright. Max Leograndis and Josh Froelich aren’t using MPXs, and they’re doin alright too, just sayin’.........

[ABQautoxer]

2 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

A couple of our local JP shooting PCC GM's have recently ditched their GMR's for the Sig MPX. 

 

They are nice guns for sure, but there's only so much you can do with a straight blowback. 

 

 

The MPX is amazing, I've shot one. What stopped me in my decision making process from buying one is reliability. Seems they are good but over time, a larger percentage of people seem to struggle with that gas system. We're new to USPSA but not competition (cars), and I know how much missing a sesssion/run due to reliability can ruin the fun. I'd rather risk placing a bit lower and get all my attempts. Besides the JP can way out shoot me, and probably can for years to come. The only thing I'm considering is doing the short stroke kit and if I do, get the full kit so I can move the gen2 SCS from the JP to the FM when I do the change out.

Edited January 19, 2019 by ABQautoxer

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, TNREDNECK said:

I ordered the smoke for mine last week...

 

Good! About time. The only downside to a JP is how heavy they are out in front.

 

Their knurled handguards feel fantastic, if only they were half the weight.

[jkrispies]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Good! About time. The only downside to a JP is how heavy they are out in front.

 

Their knurled handguards feel fantastic, if only they were half the weight.

I also prefer a lighter rifle out front, but it's all a matter of opinion and style.  I could see somebody who likes a JP balance point picking up my rifle and sneering at it.  

[ABQautoxer]

3 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

I also prefer a lighter rifle out front, but it's all a matter of opinion and style.  I could see somebody who likes a JP balance point picking up my rifle and sneering at it.  

Have you gone to one of the ultra light rear stocks to counter it already? That Smoke one looks like it has to help some.

 

Also what magwells, if any, are you guys running on the JP?

[jkrispies]

5 minutes ago, ABQautoxer said:

Have you gone to one of the ultra light rear stocks to counter it already? That Smoke one looks like it has to help some.

Definite no for me-- I go the opposite route.  I prefer a heavy stock on the rear so it's neutrally balanced around the trigger area.  Having said that, my current setup is specialized for Steel Challenge so I'm in process of building a new upper that's purposely putting a little more weight out front than what I've been running the past few years... but keeping the heavy stock.

 

No magwell, but I'm hoping to make my own.  Hence this morning's new post:  

 

[ABQautoxer]

Gotcha. That's the hard part for me since I'm coming from a mentality that weight is stabilization but that is not the popular thinking.

 

I was looking at this magwell. Not cheap but if it fits and works well, not unreasonable: https://techwellusa.com/magwells/pcc-techwell-jp-gmr-15.html

Edited January 19, 2019 by ABQautoxer

[MemphisMechanic]

46 minutes ago, ABQautoxer said:

Gotcha. That's the hard part for me since I'm coming from a mentality that weight is stabilization but that is not the popular thinking.

 

It’s a tradeoff in all shooting; my production gin was a Tanfoglio Stock III for a year. a heavy steel pig with a chunky rail up front that added a lot of weight. At 45ish ounces, the Stock 3 and the CZ Shadow 2 are heavier than most 1911s. They’re incredily easy to mow down a 20yd plate rack with, even if you don’t grip hard. The gun is inherently stable. 

 

I have gone back to polymer (Walther Q5) for Production and you need to grip hard and work harder to drill distant targets, but it’s so much faster to whip across an array of point-blank paper and mow them down. Running and gunning is far more effortless. Less muscle required.

 

Same here. My PCC is very light out front. Although I kept the weight in back for balance reasons (6lb 0.2oz total) it definitely is more nervous in recoil.

 

The CMMG Guard upper was .750” wall and had a heavy quad rail on it when I first shot it. The gun weighed 7.7 lbs and was very stable and fairly flat.

 

Turned 9oz off the barrel (.750 down to .625 full length) chopped two inches off it’s length, and went to a 10oz lighter handguard. Suddenly it was harder to shoot controlled pairs.

 

So off we go tuning the buffer system. Once I got her dialed in with ammo and buffer/spring/short stroke to shoot laser flat? It’s great.

 

But. I still can’t be lazy. If you lean forward, get low, and grip the gun hard between a thrust-forward shoulder and a hard forearm grip? It’s flat as heck... but if it were still heavy out front it would probably be downright astonishing.

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[jkrispies]

24 minutes ago, ABQautoxer said:

Gotcha. That's the hard part for me since I'm coming from a mentality that weight is stabilization but that is not the popular thinking.

Ask 10 guys for their opinion of a perfect build, and you'll get 10 different guns.  What's important is to develop your own shooting style for the types of matches you shoot and build your tools to suit that style.  

 

Having said that, I'd suggest that when it comes to firearms, take popular thinking with an extreme grain of salt.  All too often, it's based in Hollywood wives tales and "Well everybody knows" types of fluff.  Popular thinking is also going to be trendy, and trends shift with the cool kids.  In this forum you'll find guys who swear by weight reduction at all costs, and others like me who are in the middle, and I'm sure some folks on the other extreme, and we're all correct because we're building for ourselves and nobody else.  Just consider weight and weight distribution scientifically, and if you're satisfied with the answer and believe it then that's half the win, LOL.  

 

For my part, I consider weight to be a means of achieving stasis.  That means weight can be used to mitigate recoil impulse... but it's also going to slow down your acceleration into a swing while slowing down your deceleration/stop coming out of the swing.  The trick is finding the balance that suits the style you'll grow into.  I like a heavier rear to soak some of the recoil impulse but a light front end so I can accelerate quickly and stop quickly-- think of the gun as a lever with the fulcrum on your shoulder so keeping the weight near the fulcrum has the effect of lowering the amount of work needed to move the overall weight on the lever.  This is where my roots in Steel Challenge show.  Having said that, I'm building my new USPSA upper a little heavier in the front to stabilize the dot bounce, which is a non-concern for me in Steel Challenge.  And of course this all ignores loads and buffers and comps that are part of the system as well.  Again, the gun is a tool for a particular job that you're going to perform in your own style-- build the right tool for the right job that will be performed in your style, not the next guy's style.

 

And, of course, the above paragraph explains why lots of folks love the JP-- they took care of all that tuning for you with an awesome off-the-shelf gun.  That's heavy.   

[Silverscooby27]

1 hour ago, ABQautoxer said:

Gotcha. That's the hard part for me since I'm coming from a mentality that weight is stabilization but that is not the popular thinking.

 

I was looking at this magwell. Not cheap but if it fits and works well, not unreasonable: https://techwellusa.com/magwells/pcc-techwell-jp-gmr-15.html

That’s the best magwell currently available for GMR-15, and I’ve literally tried them all and then some.

[Silverscooby27]

1 hour ago, ABQautoxer said:

Gotcha. That's the hard part for me since I'm coming from a mentality that weight is stabilization but that is not the popular thinking.

 

I was looking at this magwell. Not cheap but if it fits and works well, not unreasonable: https://techwellusa.com/magwells/pcc-techwell-jp-gmr-15.html

Also, if you want your mind blown, my wife and I are going to start next season with a hybrid...GMR-15 lower with short stroke buffer, and FM9 upper. That lightened up the front end by a full pound, made the gun a LOT more maneuverable in transitions, and also has the forward charging handle, which is more convenient. Food for thought, more options.

[TNREDNECK]

Don’t have my smoke let ,but will post pics when it’s together . 

[RAVAGE88]

9 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

A couple of our local JP shooting PCC GM's have recently ditched their GMR's for the Sig MPX. 

 

They are nice guns for sure, but there's only so much you can do with a straight blowback. 

 

 

How much more do you need to do that you can't do with a straight blowback?

 

MB

[andrewt556]

17 minutes ago, RAVAGE88 said:

How much more do you need to do that you can't do with a straight blowback?

 

MB

I wanna know too. With certain loads, buffer and extra weight seems goood to me... could allways be better though. Working on a mlok weight to add some weight. 

[andrewt556]

5 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

It’s a tradeoff in all shooting; my production gin was a Tanfoglio Stock III for a year. a heavy steel pig with a chunky rail up front that added a lot of weight. At 45ish ounces, the Stock 3 and the CZ Shadow 2 are heavier than most 1911s. They’re incredily easy to mow down a 20yd plate rack with, even if you don’t grip hard. The gun is inherently stable. 

 

I have gone back to polymer (Walther Q5) for Production and you need to grip hard and work harder to drill distant targets, but it’s so much faster to whip across an array of point-blank paper and mow them down. Running and gunning is far more effortless. Less muscle required.

 

Same here. My PCC is very light out front. Although I kept the weight in back for balance reasons (6lb 0.2oz total) it definitely is more nervous in recoil.

 

The CMMG Guard upper was .750” wall and had a heavy quad rail on it when I first shot it. The gun weighed 7.7 lbs and was very stable and fairly flat.

 

Turned 9oz off the barrel (.750 down to .625 full length) chopped two inches off it’s length, and went to a 10oz lighter handguard. Suddenly it was harder to shoot controlled pairs.

 

So off we go tuning the buffer system. Once I got her dialed in with ammo and buffer/spring/short stroke to shoot laser flat? It’s great.

 

But. I still can’t be lazy. If you lean forward, get low, and grip the gun hard between a thrust-forward shoulder and a hard forearm grip? It’s flat as heck... but if it were still heavy out front it would probably be downright astonishing.

 

I was going to turn my BA barrel down as well but I might just stick with ULW. Not sure what I want to do. 

[Dirty_J]

An out of the box Mpx makes factory 124gr ammo feel like 22LR. Zero dot movement. 

 

I've never stopped mucking around with my QC10 build and neither have they with their GMR's. The chase for the "best" recoil impulse seems neverending with a blowback.