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Reloading From Pockets

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This came up at a Regional. Want to see your take on the subject.

Here is the situation. Shooter has 2 mags on belt. Shooter shoots till slide-lock, then reloads from a magazine stowed in the weak hand side POCKET rather than from the mags on the belt. Other SO observes this because I am watching gun and am visually blocked from seeing where shooter gets the magazine from.

PE was awarded to shooter.

Reason: shooter did not reload from belt where mags were being carried. Rational: under Ammunition Carrier notes/#3 "In lieu of the use of ammunition carriers, spare magazines (2).......used in a CoF may be carried in the contestant's pockets and used for any IDPA legal reload."

Shooter was not using magazines in pockets " In Lieu of" but instead was using magazines in pockets " in addition to those on the belt".

Basically, shooters in IDPA have to complete a CoF with 3 magazines only. The one in the gun (fully charged) and two additional mags either carried on the belt, or if none on the belt, the two magazines may be carried in a pocket.

Your take?

Garry N

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His mags were still on the belt when he reloaded from the pocket? That is to ask, he had not yet used all his mags on the belt?

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He ran dry, and instead of taking either of the two mags from his belt, he took one from his pocket and did an emergency reload.

Garry N

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He is supposed to be using the Pocket in the place of the belt holders. What he did was against the rules. At a local match, I would definetly not assess a penalty. I would probobly ask the shooter what the hell they are doing. :D

Later,

Ben

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Garry - If this guy was a new shooter, I'd probably explain to him that he screwed up, and tell him that the next one would earn him a PE. Otherwise, it's a PE.

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Would agree, at the local match level....explain and teach. At a Regional, it would be a disservice to the other shooters that he is shooting against.

He was a Sharpshooter, if memory is not failing <g>

Garry

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Gary, The rule is:

3. In lieu of the use of ammunition carriers, spare magazines

(2), speedloaders (3) and moon clips(3) used in a CoF may be

carried in the contestant’s pockets and used for any IDPA legal

reload.

The way this rule is worded, if you use ammunition carriers (to carry spare magazines), you can not carry spare magazines in pockets. If you use a pocket to carry spare magazines, you can not carry magazines in magazine carriers.

I would also say that you can not carry one magazine in a pocket and one in an ammunition carrier since the rule refers to carriers (plural). Also, if you use a "Barney mag" which you place in a pocket, if it has any remaining rounds in it, it could be considered a spare magazine and would not be considered legal.

I think the original intent of this rule was to say if you are a new shooter and don't have 2 ammunition carriers then you can just use a pocket. Also, I think the rules limit the competator to 2 spare magazines because it was thought that no one would carry more than 2 spares in real life. So by principle, even an empty Barney mag, while convenient, does not fully follow the rules.

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Also, if you use a "Barney mag" which you place in a pocket, if it has any remaining rounds in it, it could be considered a spare magazine and would not be considered legal....So by principle, even an empty Barney mag, while convenient, does not fully follow the rules.

I don't really see the principle. The rule is intended to limit the shooter to the magazine in the gun and two spares during a course of fire. If you have a Barney mag in your pocket, that is used for nothing but chamber loading at the beginning of the stage, who cares? I'm all for following rules. Taking an excruciatingly literal interpretation of the rules to the point of absurdity, on the other hand....

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Also, if you use a "Barney mag" which you place in a pocket, if it has any remaining rounds in it, it could be considered a spare magazine and would not be considered legal....So by principle, even an empty Barney mag, while convenient, does not fully follow the rules.

I don't really see the principle. The rule is intended to limit the shooter to the magazine in the gun and two spares during a course of fire. If you have a Barney mag in your pocket, that is used for nothing but chamber loading at the beginning of the stage, who cares? I'm all for following rules. Taking an excruciatingly literal interpretation of the rules to the point of absurdity, on the other hand....

Hmmm

I think a true literal reading of the rule does not limit the number of magazines carried. It limits the number used in the CoF to 2 (in addition to the initial one in the gun) and it limits to 2 the number that can at anytime be carried on the belt. That's all it says

If u have 2 mags on your belt and 5 in those big ass pockets on your 5.11 pants, and choose to reload from the pooket, fine, just don't use more than 2.

Barney is legal, and can be used, as long as you only use 3 total in the CoF. Charging the gun before the buzzer (and handling a 4th mag) does not viloate the spirit or letter of the rule.

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Note the rule quoted states "used in a CoF".

Even by the most strick interp. of the rule, this means that a shooter may have as many mags on his/her body as they wish as long as they are not where the shooter reloads from (only 2 on the belt, only two in the pocket they are reloading from, etc) and as long as the additional mags are not used in the CoF.

Garry

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I actually did this once. I mistakenly left a carry mag in the drop pocket in my vest, then accidentally yanked it out instead of a reload-retained mag when I ran dry later (illegal, long stage). Imagine my suprise when I was suddenly shooting 230 gr. GDHps instead of 200 gr LSWC. Nobody tried to give me a procedural until after the match- someone happened to remember it after scores were posted and I won. Irritating.

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Gun Geek,

After reading your intpretation of "used in the COF", I have to admit that it does make sense since "unused" magazines or speedloaders/moonclips, by definition, are not used in the COF.

If this is the case then the rule:

3. In lieu of the use of ammunition carriers, spare magazines

(2), speedloaders (3) and moon clips(3) used in a CoF may be

carried in the contestant’s pockets and used for any IDPA legal

reload.

is not needed. What the rule, if any, should say is simply "A shooter is limited to loading 2 spare magazines or 3 speedloader or moonclips during a COF." if that is the intent.

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"Hmmm

I think a true literal reading of the rule does not limit the number of magazines carried. It limits the number used in the CoF to 2 (in addition to the initial one in the gun) and it limits to 2 the number that can at anytime be carried on the belt. That's all it says

If u have 2 mags on your belt and 5 in those big ass pockets on your 5.11 pants, and choose to reload from the pooket, fine, just don't use more than 2.

Barney is legal, and can be used, as long as you only use 3 total in the CoF. Charging the gun before the buzzer (and handling a 4th mag) does not viloate the spirit or letter of the rule.....Gun Geek"

G.G.

I think you are wrong. As you indicate above, with the "If u have 2 mags on your belt and 5 in those big ass pockets on your 5.11 pants, and choose to reload from the pooket, fine, just don't use more than 2." is the problem as indicated with the start of this discussion. There seems to be a general impression that because one can IDPA legally have as many mags or reloaders as they want on their body, they can reload from any damn place they want as long as they only use two additional mags.

The rules are plain, if the shooter has mags on their belt, they must reload from the belt. If they choose not to have reloads on the belt, THEN and ONLY THEN can they reload from those "big ass pockets on the 5.11 pants".

Garry N

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Here is a interesting aspect...I compete in SSR. I carry two speedloaders in a snap pouch on my belt and in lieu of a 3rd speedloader on the belt behind the weapon I have it in a pocket of my 5.11 vest. I understand the rules to allow this but ask for more opinions here. :)

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I know a guy who used one mag in a vest pocket and 1 in a pouch. He picked and choosed which one he would use. His rationale for this was a bit interesting.

He got talked to by a few MD's and went back to 2 on the belt. They said he could have them all in the pocket or all on the belt, not a little of either.

I think the problem you would find with having mags in both the pockets and the mag pouches, is shooters will load from which of the two is most convenient for the stage being shot. Some SO's would consider that trying to circumvent the rules and or spirit of the game, and they might have a point there. That kind of logic is not altogether different than the guy who changes between 7 and 8 round magazines depending on the course of fire. (that was popular before they put the kaybosh on it) I would consider sticking with one carry method and use it throughout the match.

Probably would be the same for the speedloaders too, though I haven't thought about it much myself. I was loading from the pocket for a while now (was waiting on new holders) and have grown to like it, but that is a bit of thread drift.

Barney mag doesn't fall into this as long as that is the only time that particular mag is used. When the new rules came out I asked other SO instructors and some of the AC's and that was their general opinion too- that the barney mag is still okay.

Just remember in IDPA the price for trying to be more clever than the SO wants you to be is often three seconds. I wouldn't over rationalize this rule and would not stray too far from the 2 magazines/three speedloaders the rulebook allows.

Ted

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I do have several double magazine pouches for the matches. In reality however I tend to keep one magazine on the belt and one in the 5.11 vest. Sometimes both or three magazines in the vest with none on the belt. I might have to try reloading this way in a club match.

Even so the idea of splitting you mags to be able to better grab the easiest one makes good tactical sense to me. It can be gamesmanship though I can easily see how you would want to help your game skills as well as making good sense.

Whatever...best to play the game as is and not try to be "too clever". :)

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