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Mike62

IDPA Stage Design

Stage Design  

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http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/idpa/Cornerstones2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0XtxLVBAIrcX6KPGCiL_baRUYs4rgluRaecYkvDB7H1AvDfoJFsW-ZYx8

 

It seems IDPA wants MDs to design simple short stages with a low difficulty level.  This is not the trend that most MDs have taken at least in my area on the East Coast.  I'm curious to what kind of stages shooters want to see.  

 

Complex stages would be ones with movers, multiple steel targets, tight shots, lots of shooting positions or large round counts

 

Simple stages would be ones with less or little of the above

 

Let me know what you think.

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I am torn on this. I believe that difficulty should come from tight shots not difficult movers. I also believe that the majority of your targets should be within 15 yards and if the targets are past 15 yards the shooter should have the opportunity to shoot them again from another closer position if needed. I agree that going back to the basic self-defense principle is what the sport needs and that some of the actions in some of the stages are not even close to real life scenarios. But if that is the intention of IDPA why in the hell did we introduce PCC into our sport. 30 round magazine‘s non-concealable weapons are not what the founders of this sport intended. So I say again I’m torn on how to except this latest revision of the rules. Is it a game or is it real life practice make up my mind.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Mike62 said:

It seems IDPA wants MDs to design simple short stages with a low difficulty level. 

I'm not sure that is what the article is saying. It does start out that way but then (as I read it) seems to more about eliminating non-shooting crap that is subject to penalties, making stages that are a bit more freestyle, and letting the difficulty level be determined by the shooting and not by restrictions in the stage description. As the last line says: "...away from being a sport based on navigating the penalty gauntlet".

 

I like complex stages with difficult shots (as long as they work for all body types - not the ones that are easy for 7ft tall left handed 20 year old but almost impossible for 5ft tall well fed 70 year old righty). But I do think there is also a place for the low round count, simple, fast and close stages that aren't seen often enough. 

Edited by bdpaz
correct a typo

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Mix em up,,  Thats why every match I have been to has multiple stages.
As long as they are shooting challenges. Not penalty gotcha traps, stages designed to "get" a particular group of shooters, or mind fart type nonsense that has nothing to do with a shooting challenge. I  shot IDPA back in the 90's, probably gonna give it another go as there are 4 places within an hour and a half and ZERO USPSA,,   We shall see how it goes.  

Edited by Joe4d

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I wouldn't pay $110 match fee (plus traveling expenses) if the round count per stage was just 5 - 6 rounds..I hope that's not what the article in implying

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A mix of challenges among the stages, as described in Joe4d's post.  12-18 required rounds per stage. 

 

Don't try to make the stages into steel challenge or USPSA stages.  Not opposed to those shooting disciplines in any way, but stick to stages that might be unique to IDPA.

 

I see zero evidence of a conscious trend towards reducing round count or simplification of stage difficulty in IDPA matches here in the Phoenix, AZ area. 

 

A deep and intimate knowledge of IDPA rules is required to design a good IDPA stage.  Often, a skilled and experienced IDPA shooter with more extensive understanding of the rules can circumvent the intent of the stage designer.

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Match directors should be free to make whatever matches they want within the rule set of IDPA. However, posting the estimating round count on the registration page should also be required in my opinion. I'd be disappointed if I  made the time to go out to a match that turned out to be 10 stages / 60 rounds. That may some other shooters cup of tea though, just not mine.

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I was impressed by the list of bad examples in the IPDA article. I think I'll do a stage using as many as possible at the same time. Such as:

 

At start signal drink half a glass of water then gently put down a baby while slinging a crossbow and yelling “Yankee go home” before you call 911 on prop phone at which time you will dig your low cover position with the shovel while engaging…

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I liked the article until I got to this little gem on page 7.


image.thumb.png.93f5e2aea25550f92acce6485a3c6812.png

 

So if I'm shooting my 625 do I get special parking or what?

 

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1 hour ago, jhgtyre said:

I liked the article until I got to this little gem on page 7.


image.thumb.png.93f5e2aea25550f92acce6485a3c6812.png

 

So if I'm shooting my 625 do I get special parking or what?

 

Haha that's funny as hell. In all seriousness though it seems like this article is largely just reiterating rules that exist but aren't always followed. There's a maximum of six required shots per position but that doesn't always happen in level 1 matches that often use borrowed and/or improvised stage design.

There's enough rules in the match admin guide about how far away targets can be, how far away headshots can be, how much steel there can be, etc that it should be pretty straightforward for all shooting abilities to get through the match as long as the stages are designed according to the match admin guide.

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Is IDPA starting down the road towards USPSA match design?

I thought the whole idea of IDPA was short, realistic cof's.

Of course realistic can still be tough.

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24 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Is IDPA starting down the road towards USPSA match design?

I thought the whole idea of IDPA was short, realistic cof's.

Of course realistic can still be tough.

I could be wrong (only been shooting IDPA for a couple years) but it seems like most of changes made such as fault lines, shooting on the move, and not enforcing non-shooting actions have more to do with making IDPA more fair to score. The maximum round count per stage, maximum movement between shooting positions, and other stage design rules seem to be pretty consistent.  So i wouldnt say that it's turning into USPSA.

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12 hours ago, ajblack said:

There's a maximum of six required shots per position but that doesn't always happen in level 1 matches that often use borrowed and/or improvised stage design.

The 6 shots per position is no longer a rule, I think that disappeared in 2014.

 

To be clear the parts of the article that discuss not giving penalties for not performing non shooting actions is not what I am referring to here.  The first corner stone as quoted by jhgtyre is what I wanted to discuss.  Over the years of having stages approved and interacting with IDPA it had always seemed that they wanted things easier but they sort of tip toed around it.  Now they seem to not only want to encourage easier stages, but require it.  I am curious if this is what the majority of shooters want or if like the 1 second per point down rule, this is just being forced upon us because IDPA.

 

 

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Making sure that the lowest common denominator of shooter has "access" to the targets sounds more like avoiding fast moving targets and really tight cover (which the author mentions specifically).  I'm not sure that necessarily means that the author thinks stages should be easier. I personally don't mind shooting these types of features but I do understand where the article is coming from.  Having stages where all the shooters are able (physically) to shoot the same points down makes time the deciding factor for match wins, and I understand that this is more engaging to more shooters.  

If a stage is made challenging by having a super fast moving disappearing target, then basically you will have some people that can hit that target and most people that can't.  I don't think this does much to differentiate the shooters since the people who are able to hit the target are shooting for match wins and the people who aren't able to hit the target aren't. 

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Build stages for the lowest common denominator and that's they type of shooting and shooters you'll develop. The lowest skilled kind.

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I've shot quite a few "gotcha" stages where it wasn't clear how to shoot it without getting hit with penalties.  I can't think of how many times I've seen targets placed just far enough apart that you couldn't easily tell if they were equal threat or not.  I shouldn't have to ask the SO how we're supposed to engage a target and I shouldn't have to carry a tape measure in my range bag (okay, I don't do that really) just to know how to shoot a stage.

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I think the stages should be fairly simple. You only get one chance to look through the stage, no air gunning or individual walk trough's so don't make them crazy hard memory type stages. Make the shooting part the challenge. Ideally give the shooters options so better shooters can take a little risk for a reward but less experienced shooters don't get faced with something way over their heads. Even relatively easy "hosier" stages become hard when dropping just one charlie adds a full second to your time.

 

Last year our state match had a few stages that you could activate a disappearing target, and engage other things while you waited for it and end up right at 11 rounds and slide lock to reload on the move. You could save time, but there was a higher risk of dropping points, and if you took even one make up shot you'd be out on the disappearing target. Pretty much all of the risky engagement orders I played it safe thinking that was the best strategy for the day. I played it to safe, and lost. But, it was a great match, challenging but nothing crazy.

 

Really I think a match should have a mix of as much different stuff as you can.

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That article is one man's opinion and is not a change in rule or policy. 

 

The local IDPA-ish match is set up for the once a month shooter, seldom anything very tough.  I understand the MD's attitude and who he sees as his clientele.  That is ok, I will travel a bit to get to more demanding matches the other three weekends.  I am even shooting some of The Other Games these days.

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20 hours ago, MarilynMonbro said:

I wouldn't pay $110 $10 match fee (plus traveling expenses) if the round count per stage was just 5 - 6 rounds..I hope that's not what the article in implying emoji53.png

 

there's nothing wrong with a fast, low-round-count stage, as that prob mimics real life hd/sd scenarios, but run a couple of strings for that stage to bump the round count up (two hands, strong hand, weak hand, r to l, l to r, going forwards, going backwards, etc)

Edited by davsco

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26 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

The local IDPA-ish match is set up for the once a month shooter, seldom anything very tough.

Different clubs tend to cater to a different type of shooter.  My local IDPA clubs typically run matches that are on the challenging side since most of the shooters they get are regulars and generally know what they're doing.  There's one club though that gets the monthly shooters and the stages are painfully simple.  I worked as an SO for that match once and haven't been back.  Not knocking clubs that run like that, just not my cup of tea.

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Last year our state match had a few stages that you could activate a disappearing target, and engage other things while you waited for it and end up right at 11 rounds and slide lock to reload on the move. You could save time, but there was a higher risk of dropping points, and if you took even one make up shot you'd be out on the disappearing target. Pretty much all of the risky engagement orders I played it safe thinking that was the best strategy for the day. I played it to safe, and lost. But, it was a great match, challenging but nothing crazy.

Glad you liked it.  I designed half of the stages.

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3 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

I've shot quite a few "gotcha" stages where it wasn't clear how to shoot it without getting hit with penalties.  I can't think of how many times I've seen targets placed just far enough apart that you couldn't easily tell if they were equal threat or not.  I shouldn't have to ask the SO how we're supposed to engage a target and I shouldn't have to carry a tape measure in my range bag (okay, I don't do that really) just to know how to shoot a stage.

The places I've shot at always specify if targets are considered equal threats or of they are to be shot front to back or whatever.  Even if they don't initially define them they do so when questions are asked.  No gotcha unless someone doesn't  ask or pay attention.

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Sounds like IDPA still has a big problem with people, including match officials and AC's reading and following the rule book. 
Stage description CANT over ride the rule book.
Book even says that.
"A Stage Description cannot override the rulebook, nor may it forbid legal actions by shooters except under the following conditions:"
You cant tell someone what order to shoot targets. It has to be intuitive from the the stage layout.  Also if targets are close to the same distance they are equal... rule book even says that as well.
6.6.5 Memory stages are prohibited in all IDPA stages and strings of fire. A memory stage is any stage where one must remember the order of engagement, or other shooting restrictions that are not intuitive to the shooter based on the design of the stage.
Target engagement order is spelled out pretty plainly in Section 3.2  

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18 hours ago, ajblack said:

I could be wrong (only been shooting IDPA for a couple years) but it seems like most of changes made such as fault lines, shooting on the move, and not enforcing non-shooting actions have more to do with making IDPA more fair to score. The maximum round count per stage, maximum movement between shooting positions, and other stage design rules seem to be pretty consistent.  So i wouldnt say that it's turning into USPSA.

i actually agree with all of those changes.  I was commenting on the "carnival courses" talked about in a previous post.  

I don't usually shoot IDPA, lifelong (40+years) USPSA/IPSC competitor, but from what that post had stated I just wondered about the future.

Not commenting on the good or bad of it either.

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"Also if targets are close to the same distance they are equal... rulebook even says that as well."

 

Yes but if they are just barely far enough apart to require tactical priority sometimes they need to identify if they are equal threats or not.  If they are placed to make it obvious ok, if not define what they require for the shooter.

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