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Diver123

pcc starts

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I this remotely legal for a start position for PCC. Stock on belt weak hand holding rifle strong arm relaxed at side? I don't think it is but I have been told it is in some magazines as a start position. You are not required to shoot weak side in this scenario. It is pistol shooters designing stages to punish pcc shooters.

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8.2.4.1 says something about cof must never require a PCC start to be held on the weak side. 

 

Sounds like the course designer is trying to work around the rules. I would say it’s not a legal start position. 

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Legal, not telling you what side to put on, just stock on belt. Doesn’t say you have to put weak hand on grip. WSB can’t force you to start on weak side but you can if you want to. 

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I'm a pcc shooter and I don't see it as a big deal. As long as all pcc's start the same what does that matter. I kinda like the variety.

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Wasn't that start position used as an example in the email newsletter last year? If the DNROI used it as an example, it's probably legal.

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Since you can hold it on your strong side (stock touching strong side hip) and with your weak hand holding it by the forearm, with your strong hand relaxed at your side right next to the grip, that's a legal start position. 

 

It isn't forcing you to hold it on your weak side, merely with your weak hand.

 

Personally, I don't like start positions like this because I prefer to have PCC shooters start with both hands on the gun.  But it is still legal.

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You could do a trail start as outlined in the IPSC shotgun rule 8.2.2.2

708A8EFE-61CE-40CA-95C7-D25A5E025C83.png

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42 minutes ago, HCH said:

You could do a trail start as outlined in the IPSC shotgun rule 8.2.2.2

 

From: http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCC_Is_Still_Not_a_Crime.pdf

 

PCC Is (Still) Not A Crime
By Troy McManus, DNROI


Now that the shooting season is starting to ramp up, I’ve had some complaints and conversations about how some match officials are handling PCC. Confusion about start positions, (Hint: if you spell them out, there will be no confusion. Don’t get lazy and just use some term you heard), target setting (we’ll put these targets way out there so that the PCC guys have to aim hard), ability to shoot “from the hip” so to speak (yes, it’s legal), handling rules, and uprange starts seem to be the biggest issues encountered so far. None of this is hard, folks. But, let’s talk a little about each.
Start Positions: spell them out, period—this goes for handgun as well. Buttstock on belt, held in both hands, muzzle generally downrange, safety on is an acceptable start position for PCC. Buttstock on belt, strong hand naturally at side (or wrist below belt), PCC held in weak hand, muzzle downrange, safety on, is another. “Port Arms” is no good—too many variations in what people have been taught or practiced during their military service, or what they saw on TV. “Low Ready” is generally accepted as having the carbine shouldered, and the muzzle pointing downrange, below horizontal, but it’s not good enough—spell it out exactly as you would have the competitor start. Anything you can come up with for a PCC start position, as long as the competitor IS NOT HOLDING THE CARBINE AND FACING UPRANGE is fine, as long as you can define it and it can be consistently enforced. Weird carry methods, such as “trail carry” are not authorized for handling or for start positions. Default start positions are not reliable, cause confusion, and are never enforced consistently. Keep them simple, straightforward, and enforceable.

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I tried putting in different start positions for PCC at the local level and the butt hurt just wasn't worth it in the end.  A lot of PCC shooters' minds explode if they are not able to start with both hands on their rifles. 

 

The one I tried was "holding PCC in one hand only by the handguard, muzzle pointed downrange, with both wrists below belt at their respective sides."  

 

I thought it was a fairly practical start position.  

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20 minutes ago, d_striker said:

I tried putting in different start positions for PCC at the local level and the butt hurt just wasn't worth it in the end.  A lot of PCC shooters' minds explode if they are not able to start with both hands on their rifles. 

They also seem to think that all PCC starts must be buttstock on belt pointing down range. Any variation is evidently forbidden in practice. The pistol shooters don't seem to mind varying the start.. just PCC. 

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The big issue is safety.  Never force a PCC shooter to have to perform awkward start positions that can cause loss of control.

Not that hard to take something and try it for yourself before writing the WSB.

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This is why I use the same two start positions all the time. 

 

Both feet in or out of the shooting area with thumbs touching forhead or bill of hat.  PCC both feet in or out of the shooting area facing down range butt of gun touching belt.  Only thing that changes is feet in or out of the shooting area. 

 

Lets the shooter start mostly as they please and eliminates most of the your not in the right spot facing the right way.  Hopefully making life easy for the shooter and RO.  

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Been shooting PCC in USPSA & UML 3-gun since day one. Have seen almost every start position including holding on to ropes & weights while shooting. Every time the MD said it was to handicap the PCC shooter in some way. Not sure why cause it is a totally different division, but they do.

 

Most have now gone to several different standard starts. Stock on belt facing downrange. Low ready, with or without a mark on the ground to point at. Muzzle touching X-marks on wall same where pistol shooters hand are. Unloaded start on table with mags on table or belt. Feet wherever the pistol starts are. 

 

As a PCC shooter I really don't care what the start is as long as it is safe for all the shooters taking into account all skill levels. What slows me down may be totally un-safe for the newer shooter whether PCC or pistol. Worse stage was holding on to a rope and being forced to stretch to full length to shoot around a wall 1-handed left & right with PCC or pistol. Several experienced  pistol shooters DQ'd and no PCC's did. Totally un-safe and when told this his reaction was if you don't like it take the penalties. Or holding on to a 10# weight and having to do a mandatory reload. Both MD"S did it to handicap the PCC shooters. It didn't work.

 

Most MD's have gotten over their initial rifle in a pistol match problems and have accepted PCC's as here to stay.

 

gerritm

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23 hours ago, ChuckS said:

From: http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCC_Is_Still_Not_a_Crime.pdf

 

PCC Is (Still) Not A Crime
By Troy McManus, DNROI


Now that the shooting season is starting to ramp up, I’ve had some complaints and conversations about how some match officials are handling PCC. Confusion about start positions, (Hint: if you spell them out, there will be no confusion. Don’t get lazy and just use some term you heard), target setting (we’ll put these targets way out there so that the PCC guys have to aim hard), ability to shoot “from the hip” so to speak (yes, it’s legal), handling rules, and uprange starts seem to be the biggest issues encountered so far. None of this is hard, folks. But, let’s talk a little about each.
Start Positions: spell them out, period—this goes for handgun as well. Buttstock on belt, held in both hands, muzzle generally downrange, safety on is an acceptable start position for PCC. Buttstock on belt, strong hand naturally at side (or wrist below belt), PCC held in weak hand, muzzle downrange, safety on, is another. “Port Arms” is no good—too many variations in what people have been taught or practiced during their military service, or what they saw on TV. “Low Ready” is generally accepted as having the carbine shouldered, and the muzzle pointing downrange, below horizontal, but it’s not good enough—spell it out exactly as you would have the competitor start. Anything you can come up with for a PCC start position, as long as the competitor IS NOT HOLDING THE CARBINE AND FACING UPRANGE is fine, as long as you can define it and it can be consistently enforced. Weird carry methods, such as “trail carry” are not authorized for handling or for start positions. Default start positions are not reliable, cause confusion, and are never enforced consistently. Keep them simple, straightforward, and enforceable.

 

Well... that kind of contradicts the previous sentence, but it did come from NROI, so what would you expect. 

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25 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Well... that kind of contradicts the previous sentence, but it did come from NROI, so what would you expect. 

 

It doesn't contradict it, it clarifies it.  What's not to understand?  We simply can't do it.

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On 1/16/2019 at 12:46 AM, Diver123 said:

Stock on belt weak hand holding rifle strong arm relaxed at side...

 

What is controversial about this?

 

Stock is on belt. Like usual. Weak hand is in your preferred grip on the handguard. Usual.

 

Strong hand is simply relaxed at side, instead of on the pistol grip with your thumb ready to flick the safety off.No other division gets to start with a firing grip on the gun. Why should PCC?

 

Makes plenty of sense to me. It’s more equitable, not less.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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49 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

It doesn't contradict it, it clarifies it.  What's not to understand?  We simply can't do it.

 

“Do what you want, as long as it’s safe”

 

then “this is too extreme, can’t do that, even though IPSC does it all the time”

 

it really makes me wonder if Troy meant a slung PCC or something. 

 

Edit: there is nothing prohibiting this start position in the rule book. I would have to write it in a WSB just to prove a point. 

Edited by HCH

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What exactly is "Trail Carry" as mentioned above ???

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29 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

What exactly is "Trail Carry" as mentioned above ???

 

I could be wrong, but the IPSC rule/screenshot above is what I meant. 

 

Bout a minute in. These start positions are so "weird"...🤣

 

 

Edited by HCH

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2 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

It doesn't contradict it, it clarifies it.  What's not to understand?  We simply can't do it.

 

Can't do what?  "Trail Carry" explicitly or using ambiguous carry terms that not everyone might understand or agree upon?

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HCH, thanks, that doesn't look too terribly difficult.

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1 hour ago, Steve RA said:

HCH, thanks, that doesn't look too terribly difficult.

 

I would like to see more of that type of start. To me PCC is kind of boring in regards of start position. And according to the rule book currently, it is totally legal. 

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What's wrong with a stage where the pistol start position is "wrists above respective shoulders" (aka: Surrdender), and the PCC start position was "PCC held barrel horizontal and above eye level"?  They're both standard Hollywood "they dun got the drop on us" positions, yet there's a ton more complaining from one contingent than the other...

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/17/2019 at 12:41 PM, d_striker said:

 

Can't do what?  "Trail Carry" explicitly or using ambiguous carry terms that not everyone might understand or agree upon?

 

Right, he's saying you cannot use a TERM to describe a start position, you have to spell it out. Not that the position itself is off-limits. As long as it's safe, I don't see an issue with any rando start position, but it has to be spelled out. 

 

I'm also surprised we don't see more unloaded/mags on belt starts for PCC. 

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