shooting without any sights at all!

[mvmojo]

Recently bought a new open gun and did not have the C-More optic installed yet when I went to the range for our weekly action steel practice session.  Decided to try shooting my new STI Steel Master without any sights just to function test it.  Amazingly (at least for me and the guys I shoot with - several master class shooters), I could consistently ring steel at 20 & 50 yards, including pretty fast double taps.  That's without any sights on the pistol at all.  In reality, it wasn't that difficult.  Just sight over the top of the slide and, like with sights, focus on the front/top of the comp (barrel).  Lose your focus on the top of the comp and you miss.  Keep your focus and you get your hits.  I even tried it with 4" diameter targets at 30' and hit consistently!  I've never seen shooting without sights as a practice drill, but based on my experience, I highly recommend it as a confidence builder and a drill for maintaining sight focus vs target focus.

[naim]

Back when I first started  shooting there was a guy at open nationals without an optic on his gun. he had cut a “notch” down the middle of the slide. He didn’t win but he did better than everyone expected. 

Its amazing what can be done by just simply trying. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by naim

[ChuckS]

Uncle Dan!

UncleDan.pdf

[IVC]

Shooting is 80%+ trigger pull, so once you are at a certain level, you can do amazingly well by using alternate reference points. If you center the target over the muzzle and have the correct grip and stance, you are very close to what you'd be doing with the iron sights. That takes care of the horizontal alignment pretty well. Hold over should be a quick trial and error. 

 

Good shooting, though. It's not easy, but it's a fun drill...

[mvmojo]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

Uncle Dan!

UncleDan.pdf

Great article, thanks for posting!  As I said, I was amazed, as was everybody else, at how accurate you can be w/out sights.  But... when I tried to shoot fast-fast, it kinda fell apart.  Most likely due to lack of practice.  But shooting  just "fast" vs. "fast-fast", it was amazing!  Today I was sighting in my optic and had it pretty close when all of a sudden, the dot went out.  Not sure what happened, but it's going back to C-More on Monday.  But... remembering my no sight experience from yesterday, I just looked under the dot (horizontal mount) at the barrel and front of the comp and low and behold, hit, hit, hit, hit! 

 

I think there's also something to be said about Uncle Dan's experience with eyesight.  My eyes are old and need correction at every distance (progressives).  I'm fine with a red dot, but for irons I need glasses where my dominant eye  lens focuses just on the front sight.  Otherwise I have to tilt my head way back to see through the bottom of my lenses.  Without sights on the gun, I didn't notice the front of the gun being blurry at all - just look at the target, have the top of the slide and the front of the comp aligned (even if blurry), and I got my hits.  Not quite ready to try it in a match yet, but it's a thought!

[Hi-Power Jack]

10 hours ago, mvmojo said:

  I could consistently ring steel at 20 & 50 yards,  without any sights on the pistol .   

 

Sorry, I'd have to see the video to believe that.

 

       -  Doubting Thomas

 

What range were you shooting without sights ?   Who were the M-class witnesses ?

 

Not that I don't believe you, just checking the fact sheet .      

[Dranoel]

8 hours ago, IVC said:

Shooting is 80%+ trigger pull, so once you are at a certain level, you can do amazingly well by using alternate reference points. If you center the target over the muzzle and have the correct grip and stance, you are very close to what you'd be doing with the iron sights. That takes care of the horizontal alignment pretty well. Hold over should be a quick trial and error. 

 

Good shooting, though. It's not easy, but it's a fun drill...

 

Indeed. Mojo has just learned what "Index" is.

 

[mvmojo]

13 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Sorry, I'd have to see the video to believe that.

 

       -  Doubting Thomas

 

What range were you shooting without sights ?   Who were the M-class witnesses ?

 

Not that I don't believe you, just checking the fact sheet .      

 

Suggest you give it a try vs. doubting whether it's possible.  After shooting the plates several times, I'm of the impression that shooting without sights isn't that tough as long as you've got good trigger control, just like IVC says!  Read ChuckS's .pdf on Uncle Dan.  As I said initially, I highly recommend it as a confidence builder and a drill for maintaining sight focus vs target focus. No superman x-ray vision required, just keep the front of the barrel level with the back of the slide and maintain good trigger discipline!

[Steve RA]

Jack can't see the sights very well, so the lack of them probably would not affect his shooting at all.   

[mvmojo]

2 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Jack can't see the sights very well, so the lack of them probably would not affect his shooting at all.   

 

In reality, that's about where I'm at, LOL!  With irons I've got to have my shooting glasses where the left lens (my strongly dominant eye) is focused on the front sight and my right lens is set for distance to see the target.  Even though I'm strongly left eye dominant as a right handed shooter, it's an effort to keep my left eye on the front sight as I transition between targets.  Another reason I was so surprised to be able to hit an array of targets at reasonable speed without any sights at all!

[Guy Neill]

At least one GM shot competition using an IWB holste5r and 1911 with no sights.

 

He was very good.

 

 

[Joe4d]

I learned to shoot from Barbara and D.R. Middlebrook. Both shoot and competed with no sights and ran a school that taught the same. Was more of a defensive mindset, By day 3 you are running plate racks with no sights. I was using a Hipower at the time. DR shot Witness. Cant remember what Barb shot. 
He could run steel at 25 meters and nailed scaled silouette steel at 50.
Oh, Daniel Horner was another of his students.

[Hi-Power Jack]

9 hours ago, mvmojo said:

 

Suggest you give it a try vs. doubting whether it's possible.  

 

A few times, during matches, I've "lost the dot" and fired anyway to maintain

my speed.

 

It NEVER worked for me - I was always called A/M or two M.

 

I'll give it a try at the range next time I go, but I seriously doubt that I'll be able

to hit anything without sights.

 

I don't doubt that some people have the ability after lengthy practice sessions,

but doubt that I'd be one of them.      

 

Guess you can place those sights of yours in the Classifieds.      

[lgh]

On 1/13/2019 at 7:22 AM, Dranoel said:

Indeed. Mojo has just learned what "Index" is.

I agree. I have seen some very good shooters routinely make hits without sights.  A 2 time national champion (service rifle) I know taped up his handgun sights to make the point. After enough  practice, the sights go where your eyes go. I can do OK at defensive shooting distances but still not sure if I could double steel at 25 yds. without sights!

[mvmojo]

I bet you'd be surprised, especially with an open pistol with a comp.  The top of the slide/comp gives a long radius.  By focusing on the top of the comp and aligning it along the top of the slide, it's surprisingly (shockingly) easy!

[lgh]

3 hours ago, mvmojo said:

especially with an open pistol with a comp

Gonna have to get me one of those!  They're not expensive, are they?

 

 

[mvmojo]

Nah, not if you've got a lot of money!  If you're scraping by like me, then yep, they're a bite...

[IVC]

Shooting fast without sights is point shooting and I'm not sure we want to go into that discussion. Follow up shots and transitions based solely on index are point shooting too.

 

What we are talking about here is aiming, just not with sights. If the gun is lined up such that muzzle is centered just over the back of the slide, then the whole "system" is centered below the target, it's not point shooting, it's aimed shooting. Indexing is there to bring it close to the final position, but it's still the arrangement of the rear of the slide, the muzzle and the target that allows one to make the hit. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, lgh said:

Gonna have to get me one of those!  They're not expensive, are they?

 

Can get one 2nd hand for $2,000 - that's for an STI.

 

For a CZ, you can probably go around $1,500 or so.

[Dranoel]

5 hours ago, lgh said:

I agree. I have seen some very good shooters routinely make hits without sights.  A 2 time national champion (service rifle) I know taped up his handgun sights to make the point. After enough  practice, the sights go where your eyes go. I can do OK at defensive shooting distances but still not sure if I could double steel at 25 yds. without sights!

 

One of the builds I am currently working on is a new carry piece, full size 1911 frame, officer model slide, single chamber carry comp. Slide is flat topped and serrated. There are NO CUTS for sights. It won't have any. At 35 feet I can draw and put a pair in the "A" zone with my eyes closed. That's 15 feet further than the avg defensive encounter. And if I need a more accurate or longer shot, just sight down the serrations. Calling the build PBD. (Point Blank Defense)

[Hi-Power Jack]

Heck, I don't need sights on my M&P C - I just use the laser.      

[Dranoel]

3 minutes ago, IVC said:

Shooting fast without sights is point shooting and I'm not sure we want to go into that discussion. Follow up shots and transitions based solely on index are point shooting too.

 

What we are talking about here is aiming, just not with sights. If the gun is lined up such that muzzle is centered just over the back of the slide, then the whole "system" is centered below the target, it's not point shooting, it's aimed shooting. Indexing is there to bring it close to the final position, but it's still the arrangement of the rear of the slide, the muzzle and the target that allows one to make the hit. 

 

Actually what I was talking about, when I said "index" is the natural pointing ability of the gun in your hand. If you focus on a dot on the wall, close your eyes and draw to that target with your eyes closed. Where is the gun aimed when you open them? For me, it's damn near dead on. That's from practicing that very drill and adjusting my grip and my gun to do just that. If you get to that point, then no matter what else happens, when the gun stops between your eyes and the target you'll need minimal adjustment to your sight picture if any.

[IVC]

^^^ Agreed. I was responding to a different post above, where Jack said he couldn't hit jack  without the sights. He was shooting fast, though, and was relying solely on index. 

[Dranoel]

2 minutes ago, IVC said:

^^^ Agreed. I was responding to a different post above, where Jack said he couldn't hit jack  without the sights. He was shooting fast, though, and was relying solely on index. 

 

If Jack can't hit Jack without sights, he's doing it wrong. Most people that shoot themselves have the sights turned around where they can't see them.  I could shoot myself blindfolded.

[lgh]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

fast without sights is point shooting and I'm not sure we want to go into that discussion.

I agree but this is not about point shooting. My background is in defensive shooting, not games. "Always shoot with a sight picture." But when I took training with the serious guys I learned that, in the real world, you will be fixated on the threat at combat distances. That is what actually happens when someone is trying to kill you and most people will not be the exception. It's not point shooting. The gun comes up just like sighted shooting but your focus does not change to the front sight. You get a flash picture when the front sight shows up. You train so the gun automatically goes to where your eyes are and everything is lined up. Lots of training because you will default to your level of training when TSHTF. .  In that sense, you can train for games and combat the same way.  People on BE are, generally, very experienced and I suspect have honed this skill. Anyway, it's fun to check it out.