25 yard group Help

[m-cz-shadow-2]

On the topics  of 25 yard groups, practicing at the range the other day with my FGW 2011, I managed this as my group:

 

(1/2" squares for reference) 

 

Now as I am shooting with Irons I Was wondering what I can do to tighten up the group, I felt as though my front sight was covering the  entire center of the target.  For reference I am shooting 180 gr Bayous with 4.4 gr of Aliant Sport pistol loaded to 1.18 out of a 6" barrel

[Sarge]

54 minutes ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

On the topics  of 25 yard groups, practicing at the range the other day with my FGW 2011, I managed this as my group:

 

(1/2" squares for reference) 

 

Now as I am shooting with Irons I Was wondering what I can do to tighten up the group, I felt as though my front sight was covering the  entire center of the target.  For reference I am shooting 180 gr Bayous with 4.4 gr of Aliant Sport pistol loaded to 1.18 out of a 6" barrel

Time to start working on load development. You will be stupefied at the amount of change in grouping size and location simply by changing OAL .001 and or changing charge .1.

[matir]

1 hour ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

On the topics  of 25 yard groups, practicing at the range the other day with my FGW 2011, I managed this as my group:

 

(1/2" squares for reference) 

 

Now as I am shooting with Irons I Was wondering what I can do to tighten up the group, I felt as though my front sight was covering the  entire center of the target.  For reference I am shooting 180 gr Bayous with 4.4 gr of Aliant Sport pistol loaded to 1.18 out of a 6" barrel

 

Stupid question -- how did you produce that diagram with the stats?

[HoMiE]

Just now, matir said:

 

Stupid question -- how did you produce that diagram with the stats?

There is a program called SubMOA 

[m-cz-shadow-2]

Just now, HoMiE said:

1 minute ago, matir said:

 

Stupid question -- how did you produce that diagram with the stats?

There is a program called SubMOA 

 

 

yup its a free app on iphone, not sure if its for other phones though

[m-cz-shadow-2]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Time to start working on load development. You will be stupefied at the amount of change in grouping size and location simply by changing OAL .001 and or changing charge .1.

 

 

Is there a recommended order to adjust things in? I don't want to change too many things at once, that way I can observe what I'm doing and how it effects the round.

[matir]

9 minutes ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

 

 

yup its a free app on iphone, not sure if its for other phones though

 

That's cool, looks like Range Buddy on Android offers something similar.

[Sarge]

11 minutes ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

 

 

Is there a recommended order to adjust things in? I don't want to change too many things at once, that way I can observe what I'm doing and how it effects the round.

Load 20 round lots. Change oal up in a batch and down in another. Add powder to the longer load and reduce in shorter load. Leave oal alone and add/drop charge weight. Leave powder alone and add drop oal. It requires some time to loadall the various small batches but you will see results.

 

Also, if you have some different bullets around try them too. Maybe order a trial pack of other brand coated and some true jacketed bullets and load several batches of each.

 

AND make sure you chrono every batch.

[HoMiE]

If you use mixed brass just try sorting brass based on same head stamp with what you already have to see if it helps with groups. 

[m-cz-shadow-2]

16 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

If you use mixed brass just try sorting brass based on same head stamp with what you already have to see if it helps with groups. 

 

 

Good idea, that won't be too hard

 

39 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Load 20 round lots. Change oal up in a batch and down in another. Add powder to the longer load and reduce in shorter load. Leave oal alone and add/drop charge weight. Leave powder alone and add drop oal. It requires some time to loadall the various small batches but you will see results.

 

Also, if you have some different bullets around try them too. Maybe order a trial pack of other brand coated and some true jacketed bullets and load several batches of each.

 

AND make sure you chrono every batch.

 

 

I'll give it a shot next time I'm at the bench and see how it goes

[MemphisMechanic]

Use an 8” steel plate with a fresh coat of white paint to shoot groups on.

 

Paper indoors is death.

 

Your target’s job is to let you know you’re pointing at the exact same spot with each shot: A plain brown USPSA target is a horrible choice, for example.

[Stealsack]

Pick a target that allows you to aim very small.  Aim small, miss small.

I use a neon target paster on any background.  It allows me to have a very clear and reproducible sight picture.

Much better if you have access to a mechanical rest, you can rule out the shooter and see if it is the gun/load.

On my best day, I add a fair bit to the group size at 25

 

 

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Was this group shot from a bench ?   or offhand  ??

 

I'd get a front sight that is more narrow - I love the 0.08" front sight for precision.

 

Take a 6 o'clock hold - have your sight on the Bottom of the bullseye, rather than the

center of the bullseye.

 

How does this group compare with 25 yard groups you shoot with other guns or ammo ?

 

Did you shoot this indoors or outdoors ?  Adequate ear protection ?  (Stout loads indoors can

cause flinching without really great ear protection).

 

How's your eyesight ?   Are you seeing the front sight and the target clearly ?   or fuzzy ?

[m-cz-shadow-2]

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Was this group shot from a bench ?   or offhand  ??

off hand maybe around 1 seconds per shot, maybe a bit faster?

 

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Take a 6 o'clock hold - have your sight on the Bottom of the bullseye, rather than the

center of the bullseye.

I'll have to try that

 

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

How does this group compare with 25 yard groups you shoot with other guns or ammo ?

I haven't shot any other pistols in the past few months so I couldn't really give you a good answer

 

As for ears and eyes I don't think that was much of a factor, got lasik a few years ago and its still great and I was doubled up with custom plugs and howard leights with gel cups

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Take a 6 o'clock hold - have your sight on the Bottom of the bullseye, rather than the center of the bullseye.

 

This works really well for bullseye shooting at fixed distances, but for USPSA you have many other considerations, primarily the speed of target acquisition and shot calling, which are required for everything from fast draws to transitions and follow ups. That's also why "target sights" are always completely black, while USPSA guns use F/O front. 

 

If you sight it in as "hitting on the dot", you will indeed cover the target at 25 yards. Keep both eyes open and superimpose the sight picture. Let the dot "replace" the center of the target and have it centered in the rest of the target. The alignment issue is the same as when you have target sights - they are much wider and larger than the bullseye, but you center it underneath it and line up the top. With the dot, you're centering relative to the horizontal and vertical "cross," the way you'd do it with a scope. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

10 hours ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

off hand maybe around 1 seconds per shot, maybe a bit faster?

 

If you fired that 4" group at 25 yards offhand firing rapidly - I'd say you don't have a problem.

 

Not sure that I could duplicate that feat.

 

What level shooter (classification) are you ?

[IHAVEGAS]

16 hours ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

For reference I am shooting 180 gr Bayous

 

With coated bullets, if you are shooting good groups at 12.5 yards and bad groups at 25 yards you might be crimping too much. SNS pointed this out to me when I noticed that my groups were spreading more than they should just based upon increased distance, I think it is similar to throwing a curve ball that does not break much till it gets close to the plate. 

[m-cz-shadow-2]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

With coated bullets, if you are shooting good groups at 12.5 yards and bad groups at 25 yards you might be crimping too much. SNS pointed this out to me when I noticed that my groups were spreading more than they should just based upon increased distance, I think it is similar to throwing a curve ball that does not break much till it gets close to the plate. 

 

My crimp is between .420 and .425 on any given round, not sure where that falls on the spectrum of things

 

 

1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

If you fired that 4" group at 25 yards offhand firing rapidly - I'd say you don't have a problem.

 

Not sure that I could duplicate that feat.

 

What level shooter (classification) are you ?

 

Currently unclassified in limited but probably around a low B according to the classifiers I have shot

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

My crimp is between .420 and .425 on any given round, not sure where that falls on the spectrum of things

 

Nor am I. If the groups are not spreading an unreasonable amount between 12.5 and 25 then it may not be something relevant.

 

I crimp only enough to bring the brass back to the bullet, if you pull one of my bullets you might see a very small trace of a ring where the top of the brass touched the coating and you may not. 

[OnceACowboy]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Nor am I. If the groups are not spreading an unreasonable amount between 12.5 and 25 then it may not be something relevant.

 

I crimp only enough to bring the brass back to the bullet, if you pull one of my bullets you might see a very small trace of a ring where the top of the brass touched the coating and you may not. 

I think there is something to this.  When working up loads for my 40 cal TS, I learned a lot by comparing my freestyle 12.5 yd groups to the 25.

[Steve RA]

If you are attempting to develop the most accurate loads, you have to do it off a rest, Ransom being the ultimate.  You just can't tell from offhand groups whether it is the shooter or the load.

[m-cz-shadow-2]

19 hours ago, Steve RA said:

If you are attempting to develop the most accurate loads, you have to do it off a rest, Ransom being the ultimate.  You just can't tell from offhand groups whether it is the shooter or the load.

 

Thats a good point, I'll try just shooting my current load off of a rest to see how they group

[Hi-Power Jack]

We had a topic here at BE about a year ago, and most of us agreed (if I remember correctly)

that few of us would be disappointed with a rapid fire group at 25 yards that measured

only 4".

 

But, Steve's correct - you should try this from a bench to be sure.      

[Steve RA]

I could live with that group offhand, but to develop accurate loads it can't be done offhand.

[m-cz-shadow-2]

So on my last reloading session I really focused on consistency. Went back to the range and shot some more 25 yard groups taking a bit more time, (but still off hand) and the tightened up a bit (don't have a picture right now).  I do think I probably just need to practice more at 25 yards to get smaller groups but I am pretty happy with the sizing as of now.  I don't have access to a ransom rest at this point so further load development is on pause until I can get a hold of one.