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Council after the COF


gmantwo

Council after the COF  

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So, you are ROing, and either running the shooter, are the backup RO, or positioned to watch a certain 180 close situation. You see a near/possible infraction, ie; maybe you didn’t see the finger clearly/completely out of the trigger guard during movement or reload, maybe the shooter was so close to a 180 break that you would have been completely comfortable calling it(IMO if you don’t have some equivocation at times you either DQ a lot of people or you’re Missing some stuff) 

In my nearly 30 years competing in various shooting sports, I have been both counciled and have counciled shooters after the COF as a heads up to a near/possible problem. I have always listened and thanked the RO’s who have done it for me. And for the most part, shooters have been receptive to it from me. The only glaring exception to that was at Optics Nats and involved a team/sponsored shooter & a 180 situation during “make ready”. I was the 180 RO and approached him away from everyone and quietly told him of my concern. He vehemently denied taking the action I described, saying “I never did that”. I assured him he did, twice. After that I went to the RO running him to confirm and he thanked me & said he had very nearly called the DQ. 

This led to a discussion among all 6 of the RO’s on the stage with the younger/newer guys generally taking the “DQ or shut up” position, and the older RO’s saying “I’ve done it at times”. 

If I knew how, I’d turn this into a poll with 2 questions. 

1. Do you want this council? 

2. Good or bad idea to give it? 

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1) Yes, absolutely. I welcome all comments that will keep everyone safe and make me a better/safer shooter. Also, safety warnings are allowed by the stage ROs per rule 8.6.1.

2) Good idea. If they can't be mature enough to accept constructive comments, well they need to grow up. Sometimes during the heat of a run, we all lose a few IQ points.

 

Also, just a comment, they either DQ'ed or they didn't, call what you see - nothing more, nothing less.

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At level 1 matches I do this.  The first nationals I worked, I had a similar situation happen - I discretely let a sponsored shooter know after the COF that he had come right to the 180 - he didn't appreciate it.  I no longer do this at nationals - 

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3 hours ago, gng4life said:

1) Yes, absolutely. I welcome all comments that will keep everyone safe and make me a better/safer shooter. Also, safety warnings are allowed by the stage ROs per rule 8.6.1.

2) Good idea. If they can't be mature enough to accept constructive comments, well they need to grow up. Sometimes during the heat of a run, we all lose a few IQ points.

 

Also, just a comment, they either DQ'ed or they didn't, call what you see - nothing more, nothing less.

 

Like gng4life and Jack said.  A quiet, polite feedback ("counseling", as it were) is helpful and welcome.  They can see what we can't.  I've thanked ROs for this several times.  

 

OTOH, "it was close, I could have DQ'd you" actually means "it wasn't a DQ", so don't say it, just give the feedback.  Thanks!

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I don't want to be told I "almost" did something. If I did something that equals a DQ, then do it. But if I didn't, then don't say anything to me about it is my personal preference.
Agreed

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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Locals, I council, to help shooters learn, because I know everyone.

level 2 or above 180  your match is over.

179 I'm quiet.

might visit with the other RO about how close it was.

Edited by jcc7x7
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40 minutes ago, George Jones said:
1 hour ago, jcc7x7 said:

Locals, I council, to help shooters learn, because I know everyone.

level 2 or above 180  your match is over.

179 I'm quiet.

might visit with the other RO about how close it was.

 

I agree completely.

 

Please forgive me but... Does that mean that you both allow 180s at Level 1 matches for local shooters that you know and are able to give advice/counsel?  I am pretty sure this is a rhetorical question and i am just nitpicking, but i dont want to leave a doubt in others' minds as i have witnessed a 180 that made the entire squad squat (<- see what i did there?) when they got swept by the shooter.  Some commented they were literally looking into the barrel of the gun.  I also witnessed new/younger shooter pop a round out of the chamber on "Make ready"...  The shooters were local and am not sure if ROs "counseled" them, but i do know the shooters were allowed to finish the matches.

Edited by nasty618
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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

I don't want to be told I "almost" did something. If I did something that equals a DQ, then do it. But if I didn't, then don't say anything to me about it is my personal preference.

 

I started following this advice after a local match last year.  I was a back up RO on the squad and was running a shooter who had his finger in the trigger guard while moving.  I was a freshly minted RO... not wanting to ruin someone's day, not being 100% sure... whatever the reason - I did not call it.   However, I did approach the shooter after the COF and politely told him what i saw and suggested that he might want to keep an eye on that.  He denied that he did that, so i walked away... but i did go to the primary RO and asked him to keep an eye out for a potential infraction.  Worth noting that when i asked this same shooter to assume correct start position on a previous state, he said it didnt matter and became visibly annoyed when i said that i couldnt start him until the WSB Start Position was assumed.   A few weeks later, my buddy relayed me that at the following week's match the shooter said how bad of a hardass i was to him :)

 

Moral of the story for me was - DQ. Or DQ not. There is no counseling.  If Yoda was an RMI - he would say that :) 

 

Having said that - i personally dont want to hear "finger" if i am the shooter during the COF, but dont mind some post actions feedback.  I also definitely would and have pointed out potential danger areas to friends and people i know well. Specifically, things like finger not being fully out of the trigger guard where from one side looks like it might be in but from another - kinda looks ok.  You know - that finger hook that's out but parallel to the frame

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You misunderstand.  The subject was about talking to a shooter about how close he/she came to a violation when the call was not made by the RO.

 

You do not ignore violations at any match level.  The difference with local matches is that you commonly have new shooters who need guidance.  The RO has the option of Warnings (Muzzle or Finger - see Rules 8.6.1 and 8.6.2) that can be used during the course of fire.  Once the COF is finished and no violation has occurred, the RO should talk to new shooters to assure they know how close they came.

 

Those warnings and discussion have no place at higher level matches where new shooters are usually not found.  Either the violation occurred and was called or it didn't.

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I'm not coming from the perspective of a new shooter, so take what I say as only relating to myself. I don't give unsolicited advice at matches nor do I expect to receive any. For me, where I'm at, I don't want any "well you almost...." of any kind; whether it was something awesome or horrible. At worst it is patronizing and at best it's distracting.

 

I do agree that new shooters should be helped. That is for sure.

 

And if you've shot with me at a match, you know I am friendly and talkative. But I prefer to talk about something else other than performance. Lunch, vacations, movies, anything but what I just did.

Edited by rowdyb
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19 minutes ago, George Jones said:

You misunderstand.  The subject was about talking to a shooter about how close he/she came to a violation when the call was not made by the RO.

 

You do not ignore violations at any match level.  The difference with local matches is that you commonly have new shooters who need guidance.  The RO has the option of Warnings (Muzzle or Finger - see Rules 8.6.1 and 8.6.2) that can be used during the course of fire.  Once the COF is finished and no violation has occurred, the RO should talk to new shooters to assure they know how close they came.

 

Those warnings and discussion have no place at higher level matches where new shooters are usually not found.  Either the violation occurred and was called or it didn't.

 

17 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

No I don't tell people they got close to the 180 at level 2 and above.

 

Got it.  Thank you!  As i mentioned, it was a rhetorical question, considering the vast amount of experience and knowledge i was "questioning" :).  But having witnessed those things at local matches, i wouldnt want someone relatively new (like me) to misinterpret what was written. 

 

14 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I'm not coming from the perspective of a new shooter, so take what I say as only relating to myself. I don't give unsolicited advice at matches nor do I expect to receive any. For me, where I'm at, I don't want any "well you almost...." of any kind; whether it was something awesome or horrible. At worst it is patronizing and at best it's distracting.

 

I do agree that new shooters should be helped. That is for sure

 

I understand and agree 100%.  The case i was describing (finger) was not a new shooter (time in sport wise).  The second case (loaded gun at MR) - the violation was clear and age/experience should not have mattered, IMO.

Edited by nasty618
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My preference and practice is to say nothing and have nothing said to me unless it's a new shooter situation.  

 

I have the entire 180 degrees in which to work.  I don't need you to tell me I got close.  

 

Edited to add:  Even though it's permissible according to the rules, I think it's a TERRIBLE idea to yell anything at a shooter other than "STOP" during a course of fire.  

Edited by wtturn
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1 hour ago, George Jones said:

You misunderstand.  The subject was about talking to a shooter about how close he/she came to a violation when the call was not made by the RO.

 

You do not ignore violations at any match level.  The difference with local matches is that you commonly have new shooters who need guidance.  The RO has the option of Warnings (Muzzle or Finger - see Rules 8.6.1 and 8.6.2) that can be used during the course of fire.  Once the COF is finished and no violation has occurred, the RO should talk to new shooters to assure they know how close they came.

 

Those warnings and discussion have no place at higher level matches where new shooters are usually not found.  Either the violation occurred and was called or it didn't.

 

This100 percent.

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I generally agree, with the exception of bays wherein the 180 is not obvious such as with angled back berms. Even an experienced shooter may not realize, and as the shooter I'd like to know how close I came before putting myself in the same jeopardy on the next stage. In any case, if an RO did warn me, I'd like to think I would be polite in my reply... there is no need to be an ass about it (unless they are first :D).

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  If the biggest thing i have to worry about is that an RO tells me i was close to  a 180,  etc., i can live with that and be fine.  Sometimes i appreciate the info and sometimes i disregard it, cause i new i was there, but I don't get my panties in a wad either way

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3 hours ago, wtturn said:

  it's a TERRIBLE idea to yell anything at a shooter other than "STOP" during a course of fire.  

 

As a shooter who is hard of hearing, I have to agree 100%.

 

I've had a couple RO's yell something at me while I was shooting,

and I always immediately STOPPED.

 

I couldn't figure out what they said, or what had happened, so I

thought it safest to STOP everything and see what was wrong.

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I like to think of it from this perspective. The mental game is a huge component in the grand scheme of things when it comes to performing in an optimal manner. As an RO I want to expose every competitor to the same stage experience. This obviously includes the normal requirements like running the stage properly, officiating effectively, and that kind of stuff. But it also includes not manufacturing a scenario that could circumvent the competitors mental game before, during or after their stage run. For example, a shooter could come really close to breaking the 180 on your stage, you give them a warning about it after their run, then they donate time on future stages because they are worried about breaking the 180. That to me is a huge disservice to the shooters potential mental game through the rest of the match.

 

The practical shooting sports are adult games with adult rules and consequences. There is no need for warnings, helmets, training wheels, air bags, or seat belts to attempt to keep people from doing the wrong thing. The rules define what the limits of the game are and what should be done if those limits are broken. You break the rules, you get rewarded accordingly. You don't break the rules, keep on keeping on. Does it really matter if a shooter gun is pointed right on the 180 or at the 160? Neither are breaking the 180. If the shooter breaks the 180, then they get DQed accordingly. If the RO doesn't have the backbone or aptitude to make a 180.1 degree or beyond DQ call, then they shouldn't be ROing. 

 

The reality is that for most of the common DQ offenses that newer shooters perform need to be learned the "Hard Way" before they really get it. You can warn someone proactively endlessly before they do it and they won't truly those warnings until they pay the price directly for screwing it up. For most, lessons can only really be learned the hard way. 

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3 hours ago, RJH said:

  If the biggest thing i have to worry about is that an RO tells me i was close to  a 180,  etc., i can live with that and be fine.  Sometimes i appreciate the info and sometimes i disregard it, cause i new i was there, but I don't get my panties in a wad either way

Good perspective 

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