8.3.7.3 PCC muzzle

[egd5]

If an open shooter can use a holster that just locks the pistol on it without covering it up I need to design that type of holster to hold a pcc. I'll be rich beyond my wildest dreams!!

[teros135]

1 hour ago, davsco said:

that's a little carried away.  pretty sure there's a rule that says no walkthru's with firearms or firearm replicas.

 

Isn't there a rule, "All guns are loaded", that is the basis of safe gun handling?  Remember Jeff Cooper?  Isn't that why we treat guns with more respect than "it's no more than a broomstick"?

[StealthyBlagga]

49 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Isn't there a rule, "All guns are loaded", that is the basis of safe gun handling?  Remember Jeff Cooper?  Isn't that why we treat guns with more respect than "it's no more than a broomstick"?

 

That's not how we treat handguns in USPSA... apparently "holstered = inert"

Edited January 20, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[teros135]

9 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

That's not how we treat handguns in USPSA... apparently "holstered = inert"

 

Folks say "inert", but I've never seen that in the rule book or any real discussion of gun safety.  

[rowdyb]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:09 AM, davsco said:

most if not all don't want to be carrying a slung pcc all day long,

so part of this is me agreeing with you and others and part of it is just "gospel according to rowdy" and my own personal thing.

 

for the in agreement part, why i like slung is precisely because a slung, empty, flagged gun is inert. so who cares if it goes over your feet while you walk around, or it points at someone's legs as you bend over to lift steel? you've proven it is empty after the last time it had ammo in it to the RO, you continue to prove it is empty by having it out in the open for everyone to see it has no mag in it and you physically prove it can't fire by having a chamber flag in for all to see. it also takes away the time suck people complain about, true or not, of the extra steps of bagging and unbagging.

 

the only negative to a sling is people whining about it being uncomfortable. or maybe that they'd have to learn a new skill/manual of arms item. 30 minutes of dry fire in the garage and you've got it.

 

so the sweeping with a slung pcc is a non argument to me (though the rule book disagrees with me). just like if i stand with my feet in a wide stance while walking a stage i've put my thigh below the barrel of my gun in the holster. or if i reach down and cup my fingers under the bottom/muzzle end of the holster i've swept myself.... but no one get's sent home for those actions?

 

the second and just personal opinion is (and this will annoy many) is that I don't like carts, stools, buggies and such. just like i think it's weakness to need coffee in the morning i think people should harden up and if you can't carry it yourself don't bring it to the match. i've carried a slung rifle all day, day after day. it's not tough. so i don't buy the reasons why others can't do it for the 6 hours of a match. if i can't carry it in my two hands, it will never come to the match with me.

 

and i think we pay lip service to cooper's 4 rules of gun safety. and yeah while there may be no usage of the word inert in the rule book it doesn't me we cant use it as a description ourselves, or to imply an intent. just because a word isn't in the rule book doesn't mean it cant be used or isnt relevant to the discussion.

 

you absolutely can treat a rifle just like a pistol. but you have to think and act a little more to do it. i don't think anyone who wrote the rule book addendum for pcc really considered that could be a true possibility.or had the practical experience of using a rifle all day in our environment. so now we have these silly ad infinitum arguments.

Edited January 20, 2019 by rowdyb

[shred]

12 hours ago, davsco said:

that's a little carried away.  pretty sure there's a rule that says no walkthru's with firearms or firearm replicas.

"Pretty sure there's a rule"....  Isn't that what the new rulebook is supposed to fix?

 

Actually 8.7.1 says firearms and replicas can't be used as a sighting aid, not that you can't have one, and the broomstick fans say 10.5.1 doesn't apply which is the only other thing preventing it.

 

We do belt-and-suspenders safety with pistols, so not pointing "empty" rifles at people seems like a good plan to me.  Otherwise I don't really care and will do whatever the rules want.  I do note that my PCC Thompson has a very different ready-condition than my PCC AR.  Bolt locked open means 'ready to rock'.

[egd5]

Hi Rowdy. I like that "gospel according to Rowdy""  haha

As for carts,etc. I somewhat agree, BUT, wait another 15 years (if I remember your age) and see if you still feel the same.

[davsco]

i never did carts til i started 3 gun.  then, since i have one, nice to use for uspsa etc.  nice having your crap off the ground, not taking space up on a loading table, etc.  in no way do i equate cart = weenie.  easy and smart certainly doesn't mean weak.

 

not sure why some are so rabidly anti-pcc.  they're a bunch of fun and great practice for a sd/hd event that hopefully never happens.  just like handguns.  we certainly should not be pointing them at ourselves or others, but again with the flag in the chamber, it's pretty much a broomstick.  bending over with a handgun may result in it being pointed at someone, and certainly holstering and drawing (including the few shooting themselves in the leg and foot).  just saying, let's not be range nazis with visibly and physically inert pcc's when we do make some allowances for handguns.  that said, rules are rules and must be followed.  just hoping that rule makers and enforcers take all this into account.

[OPENB]

i never did carts til i started 3 gun.  then, since i have one, nice to use for uspsa etc.  nice having your crap off the ground, not taking space up on a loading table, etc.  in no way do i equate cart = weenie.  easy and smart certainly doesn't mean weak.

 

Me too. I take my cart to all matches that I can drive to with it. So convenient to be able to have everything I might need, and not have to go to the truck to retrieve. I still think It should be mandatory that everyone has a chair. Be a lot less wore out people at the end when it's time to tear down, and they're sneaking off.

[rustychev]

After reading this.  What it all comes down to for me is I dont like having a gun, handgun or rifle pointed at me. 

 

Is a PCC that has been shown to be clear and then hammer down and flagged more or less safe than a PCC in a bag when someone just walks on the range and no one other than the shooter has seen it be clear?  I would say the shown clear and flagged gun is safer BUT it still looks bad to have that broomstick pointed at a person to someone who dose not know how it was cleared and by this I mean saw it being done not just how the rules say it is to be done. 

 

That is why I think the rules are written as they are.  Not for what is truly safest but what looks and FEELS safe.

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, rustychev said:

After reading this.  What it all comes down to for me is I dont like having a gun, handgun or rifle pointed at me. 

 

Is a PCC that has been shown to be clear and then hammer down and flagged more or less safe than a PCC in a bag when someone just walks on the range and no one other than the shooter has seen it be clear?  I would say the shown clear and flagged gun is safer BUT it still looks bad to have that broomstick pointed at a person to someone who dose not know how it was cleared and by this I mean saw it being done not just how the rules say it is to be done. 

 

That is why I think the rules are written as they are.  Not for what is truly safest but what looks and FEELS safe.

agreed. There is just something about staring down the muzzle of a barrel......

 

[pjb45]

On 1/7/2019 at 9:51 AM, StealthyBlagga said:

Best practice likely varies by locale (safe muzzle direction, shooter demographics, local customs). I'd rather USPSA not impose a one-size-fits-all mandate - we don't need to be DQing folks over what is arguably a harmless technicality. If they actually sweep someone, then that is one thing... DQing for something that could maybe lead to sweeping seems silly to me.

Yes.  At the most recent NROI Multigun Certification in AZ, muzzle up was mandate in the training session.

 

[bret]

4 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Yes.  At the most recent NROI Multigun Certification in AZ, muzzle up was mandate in the training session.

 

I think the rules say muzzle reasonably vertical whether up or down.

 

who taught the class?

[Joe4d]

alot of these posts are comical,,, umm let me put my gun inside a soft  cloth bag,,,, suddenly that bag is bullet proof...  can point it at your forehead everything is AOK,,, but OMG if my gun is in my hand,,,, bolt open, magwell open, flag up chamber,,, OMG WE WILL ALL DIE ! 
 flagged chamber in carbine should equal holstered in pistol,,,

[bret]

12 hours ago, Joe4d said:

alot of these posts are comical,,, umm let me put my gun inside a soft  cloth bag,,,, suddenly that bag is bullet proof...  can point it at your forehead everything is AOK,,, but OMG if my gun is in my hand,,,, bolt open, magwell open, flag up chamber,,, OMG WE WILL ALL DIE ! 
 flagged chamber in carbine should equal holstered in pistol,,,

Can you wave a pistol around in a holster?

 

if I take my belt off with a gun in the holster, that's a DQ yet people can handle PCC's.

 

a holstered pistol or bagged pcc, there is no access to the trigger.

[Sarge]

24 minutes ago, bret said:

Can you wave a pistol around in a holster?

 

if I take my belt off with a gun in the holster, that's a DQ yet people can handle PCC's.

 

a holstered pistol or bagged pcc, there is no access to the trigger.

I agree. We all know The P in USPSA technically stands for practical but for the last 40ish years we all also know it stands for .pistol 

[MemphisMechanic]

On 1/20/2019 at 9:24 PM, rustychev said:

 What it all comes down to for me is I dont like having a gun, handgun or rifle pointed at me. 

 

That’s what it’s all about. An exposed handgun or rifle, with chamber flagged or slide locked back? Subjectively it feels less safe to have the bore swung across your body than if that weapon is inside a zipped-shut case where you cannot visually confirm it’s operating state.

 

Cleared a handgun in the safe area, hammer down, then slid it deeply inside a range bag which is zipped shut. Then pick the bag up, turn around, and wave farewell to your buddies. You just swept the muzzle across every last one of them and no one is going to bat an eye.

 

On 1/20/2019 at 9:24 PM, rustychev said:

 

That is why I think the rules are written as they are.  Not for what is truly safest but what looks and FEELS safe.

 

Yup.

[David.Hylton]

A significant problem is that there is always someone who will do something stupid. Especially at the start of the match when they haven't been through a stage and ULASC yet. I've seen more than one loaded gun come out of a range bag at the start of the match. 

 

The second problem is people don't know/follow the rules that we have. Many shooters don't take the time to read the rules and understand the requirements for casing/carting.

 

The third problem is people fidget. A cased gun is left alone on a bench or cart. A PCC is on the shooter is subject to being messed with. The "let me aim at the sky to adjust my optic" BS.

 

Is this a proper example of rule 5.2.1.5?

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by David.Hylton
added photo

[bret]

1 minute ago, David.Hylton said:

A significant problem is that there is always someone who will do something stupid. Especially at the start of the match when they haven't been through a stage and ULASC yet. I've seen more than one loaded gun come out of a range bag at the start of the match. 

 

The second problem is people don't know/follow the rules that we have. Many shooters don't take the time to read the rules and understand the requirements for casing/carting.

 

The third problem is people fidget. A cased gun is left alone on a bench or cart. A PCC is on the shooter is subject to being messed with. The "let me aim at the sky to adjust my optic" BS.

 

Is this a proper example of rule 5.2.1.5?

 

http://i63.tinypic.com/egcs9f.jpg[/IMG]

According to the rules, that is legal if Flagged,  if the muzzle sweeps anyones feet, it would because DQ.

[David.Hylton]

"According to the rules, that is legal if Flagged,  if the muzzle sweeps anyones feet, it would because DQ."

 

What is "reasonably vertical?" If I was the RM I'd have him adjust it.  Rule 5.2.1.6 uses three feet for carts and rule 5.2.7.3 uses three feet for holstered pistols. I'd use the same measurement in this case.

Edited January 22, 2019 by David.Hylton

[bret]

19 minutes ago, David.Hylton said:

"According to the rules, that is legal if Flagged,  if the muzzle sweeps anyones feet, it would because DQ."

 

What is "reasonably vertical?" If I was the RM I'd have him adjust it.  Rule 5.2.1.6 uses three feet for carts and rule 5.2.7.3 uses three feet for holstered pistols. I'd use the same measurement in this case.

Not sure if the 3 feet applies to slung pee see see.

 

You can't just apply a rule you think covers it.

 

I do think an R.O. or RM could make him carry it more vertically. 

 

The guy is obviously going to sweep someone that way, send him to Dairy Queen. 

[Joe4d]

you can certainly wave a pistol around all you want.  In a bag... Its just emotion,,, and really not logical to consider a bagged gun magically safe to point at someone, but an unbagged  one is dangerous..
Honestly Id rather see a flagged chamber.  Dont think you should point guns at people bagged or not. 
Lots of matches been using rifles for a long time. What kinda rules do the various 3 gun orgs use ?

[Patrick Scott]

Correct me if I am wrong here on these few points. Im not talking about whats in the rules, just the reality on the ground of muzzle safety issues:

 

1:Safety wise there is no difference between a bagged PCC and a bagged handgun. We cant know if the shooter who just grabbed his bag out of their vehicle at the start of the day has a loaded firearm in there or not as they make their way to the safety table sweeping competitors and staff. 

 

2:It is possible through natural match day body movements such as resetting the stage to sweep fellow competitors with both a holstered hand gun and a slung PCC.  Vertically carted or bagged-on-the-ground, at the berm PCCs wont sweep anyone during these movements.

 

3: Through mechanical failure or improper trigger jobs, in a perfect storm scenario(loaded gun from the car) a handgun has a higher chance of discharging a round than a flagged PCC.  While bagged and PCC unflagged the chances are the same. 

 

4: Referencing #3 is easier on the whole for a handgun to discharge vs. a flagged PCC. Period. 

 

 

As is was said before, emotion, not logic is forming most folks opinions about the real muzzle safety of handgun vs. PCC. Its not a coincidence that most that claim these PCC muzzle dangers are almost always those that dont feel the divisions belongs in the sport.  When you are grasping at straws, any straw will do I guess... 

 

[bret]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

you can certainly wave a pistol around all you want.  In a bag... Its just emotion,,, and really not logical to consider a bagged gun magically safe to point at someone, but an unbagged  one is dangerous..
Honestly Id rather see a flagged chamber.  Dont think you should point guns at people bagged or not. 
Lots of matches been using rifles for a long time. What kinda rules do the various 3 gun orgs use ?

In USPSA Multigun, you aren't allowed to sweep anyone with any of your guns, if you do, its Dairy Queen. 

 

Some of the sloppiest gun handling comes from multigun/ 3 Gun and a lot of these people are now shooting PCC and bringing their sloppy gun handling with them and from my experience,  not much is being done about it. 

 

USPSA has multiple layers of safety built into their rules, when people start getting sloppy in one area, they will do it in other areas as well, when you are playing a game with guns, we should try to be more safety conscious,  not have a cavalier attitude in reagards to safety.

 

People break 180 and point guns at people, get DQ'd and are more upset their match is over than the fact they pointed a loaded gun at someone. 

[FullMetalJacket]

Im muzzle up to and from the line... Muzzle down in the cart... I park at the berm... I've also used a bag and bagged at the berm as per the rules on long trips where I didn't bring my cart 

 

Rule is easy really... Dont point guns at you or anyone else