8.3.7.3 PCC muzzle

[bret]

20 minutes ago, rustychev said:

Depending on how the holster is set up if someone bends over to say set steel it is possible.

Can't sweep someone with a holstered pistol.

[bret]

22 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Handgun match? I think you meant "practical shooting" match. 

 

 

When pee see see was added, the rule book said Handgun.

 

They changed the rules this month, nice try...

[egd5]

I agree that uspsa needs to do a better job setting some rules for handling a pcc. There's too much inconsistency. Being a pcc shooter I'd have to disagree about your idea of no PCCs. It isn't a handgun match, it's a practical shooting match, as the name says.

And I also agree that it should be muzzle up when carrying. Although, I was recently at a match where a couple of people had rifles-they could have been rimfire, this was a steel match-in carts and the rifles were pointed up, and not straight up either. Kinda right at themselves as they walked behind the cart. I didn't get close enough to see the flag though. Again, we need consistency in a bunch of pcc handling rules. There has been many years to work out all the rules for pistols, so it may just take a little more time to get it all sorted out for pcc.

[Thomas H]

I personally think half the problem with the "muzzle up OR down" thing is that each works best in different situations.

 

For example, when carrying the PCC, muzzle up almost always means that the muzzle is above your head height.  Really hard to sweep anyone.  Conversely, when in a cart, muzzle-down generally has the PCC pointing at the base/wheels of the cart, so again, really hard to sweep anyone.

 

Carrying the opposite way in both cases gives entirely to many chances to sweep others, IMO.  (Muzzle-up in a cart is simply going to sweep people, because the muzzle itself is so low.  Carrying muzzle-down doesn't make it likely to sweep someone, but it is MORE likely than if carried muzzle-up with the muzzle above the carrier's head.)  People don't necessarily pay attention to that, though.

 

One thing I'm making sure to remind my local shooters about is the "you can't do anything but uncase at the berm, so don't fiddle with the dot because it is a DQ" thing.  I get why the rule is that way, but people will be people, and they are treating the berm like a temporary safety area, and that's a problem.

[Dirty_J]

4 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

I personally think half the problem with the "muzzle up OR down" thing is that each works best in different situations.

 

For example, when carrying the PCC, muzzle up almost always means that the muzzle is above your head height.  Really hard to sweep anyone.  Conversely, when in a cart, muzzle-down generally has the PCC pointing at the base/wheels of the cart, so again, really hard to sweep anyone.

 

Carrying the opposite way in both cases gives entirely to many chances to sweep others, IMO.  (Muzzle-up in a cart is simply going to sweep people, because the muzzle itself is so low.  Carrying muzzle-down doesn't make it likely to sweep someone, but it is MORE likely than if carried muzzle-up with the muzzle above the carrier's head.)  People don't necessarily pay attention to that, though.

 

One thing I'm making sure to remind my local shooters about is the "you can't do anything but uncase at the berm, so don't fiddle with the dot because it is a DQ" thing.  I get why the rule is that way, but people will be people, and they are treating the berm like a temporary safety area, and that's a problem.

How do you feel about manipulation of an optic while the carbine is in the vertical up or down position? 

[Thomas H]

4 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

How do you feel about manipulation of an optic while the carbine is in the vertical up or down position? 

 

I personally don't care, because if it is held correctly, then it shouldn't be a problem.  ....shouldn't.

 

However, that's separate from what the rules say, and I see where they are coming from because if people are fiddling with optics while holding the gun in random places, they are MUCH more likely to stop paying attention to the direction of the muzzle, and then it turns into a safety issue.

 

So I'll follow the rules, and remind people to not mess with the optics anywhere but on the line under the direction of an RO, or in a safety area. 

 

It does seem pretty straightforward to me.  Don't fiddle with stuff unless in a safety or on the line, just like a handgun. 

[bret]

15 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

I personally don't care, because if it is held correctly, then it shouldn't be a problem.  ....shouldn't.

 

However, that's separate from what the rules say, and I see where they are coming from because if people are fiddling with optics while holding the gun in random places, they are MUCH more likely to stop paying attention to the direction of the muzzle, and then it turns into a safety issue.

 

So I'll follow the rules, and remind people to not mess with the optics anywhere but on the line under the direction of an RO, or in a safety area. 

 

It does seem pretty straightforward to me.  Don't fiddle with stuff unless in a safety or on the line, just like a handgun. 

The problem is, PCC is given exemptions on handling their guns outside of the safe area and shooting area, not unreasonable to expect them to not do anything other than carry it to and from the shooting area until given the make ready command.

 

If you take your belt off with a gun in a holster, it's a DQ, but they allow you to handle PCC that is uncased.

 

In the rush to get pcc out there, USPSA made some mistakes on the rules,  PCC should go to and from the line on a case, no handling of it unless in a safe area or under the direction of a range officer,  just like handguns.

[egd5]

In something like a steel challenge shoot where the start and stop position of the shooter doesn't change it is a lot more practical to have pcc uncase and case at the same spot. But in the usual uspsa stage the start and stop positions are not the same. Then when the shooter wants to follow around when scores are called that adds another element of time into things. When does he recase? Go back to start position, recase, then ro calls range clear and scoring can begin? All unnecessary, IMO, added time to shooting a stage.

It seems much easier to allow flagged gun to be carried muzzle vertically up while shooter watches scoring then go to side berm and case. In the meantime next shooter who has uncased his flagged gun already at side berm is standing at start position waiting for ro .

As for handling it at the side berm, dots,etc., as long as it's flagged and held vertically with muzzle up I don't see a problem with that. A flagged gun has been rendered inoperative.

[revoman]

14 hours ago, bret said:

Can't sweep someone with a holstered pistol.

Can you sweep someone with a pistol in a range bag?    

[bret]

7 minutes ago, revoman said:

Can you sweep someone with a pistol in a range bag?    

No

[revoman]

Then how can you sweep someone with a rifle in a case?

[revoman]

Not trying to be an ass but a case and a range bag do the same thing     

[bret]

5 minutes ago, revoman said:

Then how can you sweep someone with a rifle in a case?

You can't.

[revoman]

All pistols and revolvers that are brought to a safety area are already bagged and when the competitor is walking to the safety area or walking around before going to the safety area I can say with 100% that they have swept somebody if not themselves. 

[rowdyb]

I say get rig of bags, racks and carts and such entirely for pcc. Your "holster" for a carbine is a sling. You have to wear/carry your gun all day just like a pistol shooter. Worn on the sling such that it is muzzle down, action open and visible, flag inserted and visible.

 

You carry your carbine around all day just like the rest of us. And in doing so it is treated just as a holstered pistol.

Edited January 15, 2019 by rowdyb

[lacivilian]

47 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I say get rig of bags, racks and carts and such entirely for pcc. Your "holster" for a carbine is a sling. You have to wear/carry your gun all day just like a pistol shooter. Worn on the sling such that it is muzzle down, action open and visible, flag inserted and visible.

 

You carry your carbine around all day just like the rest of us. And in doing so it is treated just as a holstered pistol.

Sounds like a good plan until they go to paste a low target and sweep everyone behind them.

[OPENB]

Nothing requires you  to wear your pistol all day. You are free to bag it after every stage.

[Dirty_J]

10 minutes ago, OPENB said:

Nothing requires you  to wear your pistol all day. You are free to bag it after every stage.

You're not supposed to RO with a pistol on... but we all know how that goes down at level I's. 

[HoMiE]

7 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

You're not supposed to RO with a pistol on... but we all know how that goes down at level I's. 

That’s IPSC rule not USPSA. 

[Dirty_J]

8 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

That’s IPSC rule not USPSA. 

Ok. Shouldnt. 

[Patrick Scott]

Lots of talk about the potential for a "dangerously" cased PCC because we dont know if its loaded in the case and if there may be something in the case to discharge said loaded gun.
Lots of talk about "sweeping" with a cased PCC.

Funny, I have never heard/read these concerns over handgun shooters showing up to the line with a bagged handgun.  Kinda the same situation isn't it?  

[rowdyb]

if the bag is an issue, get rid of it. The htfu and carry it all day is my personal opinion. And as far as bending over with a slung pcc, no need to "well what if..." that scenario. We already have rules for what might, or might not, happen in that circumstance.

 

Trust me, you can wear a carbine on a sling all day and not sweep anyone. I've done it. Just like we can trust people with holstered pistols to be uprange and turn and draw.

 

If you write a rule book or what if/scenario it out to the moron level then everything thing becomes a problem.

[revoman]

1 hour ago, Patrick Scott said:

Lots of talk about the potential for a "dangerously" cased PCC because we dont know if its loaded in the case and if there may be something in the case to discharge said loaded gun.
Lots of talk about "sweeping" with a cased PCC.

Funny, I have never heard/read these concerns over handgun shooters showing up to the line with a bagged handgun.  Kinda the same situation isn't it?  

Same point I was trying to get across.

[rustychev]

21 hours ago, bret said:

Can't sweep someone with a holstered pistol.

Per the rule book no.  In reality you sure can.

 

I will admit I was very anti PCC when they first started showing up at matches, now OK what ever makes you happy.  Just follow the rules.  I would like to see the bagging done at a safe table but I understand why that my not be piratical given a range lay out.  I sent 2 people home last year for messing with the red dot into the side berm and Im sure I will again this year.  the exemption to the rule seams to make some people think they are good to go as long as the face the berm.  I also dont like that no rule exists that forbids them from having ammo out or in a hand during the bagging.  If I bag my hand gun with live ammo in my hand Im going home.

[egd5]

No ammo "out". Define out. Is that mag in hand, mag on belt 12" away from gun being bagged, where do you draw the line? As Rowdy said a couple of posts back, we have to have some amount of trust in people at these shoots. A shooter has just taken out the mag, has it in hand while he shows clear and you can't trust him to continue holding it while he bags it? Suddenly he is a danger to everyone?

Also, as I believe Rowdy implies, we can't write rules and treat everyone as morons and try to cover every possible scenario. We need to use common sense and try to cover potential places for human error, not every what if...possibility.