USPSA Division for New Shooter?

[tacomandood]

34 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

I think it's a higher badge of honor to be a solid Production shooter.

 

As do many, and I’m not arguing with that. I just didn’t see Production as competitive as other divisions. When the elements of USPSA are “accuracy, power, and speed” you’re definitely at an advantage and shooting with less power in Minor, and, depending on the stage, are inevitably slower because of your reloads. 

 

Plus, how do you define a “solid Production shooter”? The answer really depends. Again, overall placement is tough to gauge, since you’re comparing apples to oranges against those guys with laser guns and PCCs. I guess classification is one way, though HFs for a Production Master are always going to be lower than HFs for a Limited or Open Master. The same “apple to oranges” argument comes up though, so then maybe that isn’t the best way either. 

 

I guess it comes down to personal preference. Just go shoot what you want and be competitive where you want to. That’s the main reason I switched too; there were so few people shooting Production (locally) that I wanted to switch to Limited and compete against more shooters overall. More points for Major and less reloads was just an upside to that lol.

Edited January 8, 2019 by tacomandood
spelling

[JJB05]

I started shooting USPSA in production and got to learn the sport....I switched to Limited simply because it was more fun to me...i don't really care about competitiveness of the divisions...no matter what i shoot if I am not first i have work to do....and i have plenty of work because i haven't won anything!

[nasty618]

32 minutes ago, tacomandood said:

I just didn’t see Production as competitive as other divisions

That first part is what i disagree with - Production IS a VERY competitive division.  Just look at the number of people in it and the number of Ms/GMs in it.  Perhaps we use "competitive" to describe different things?  Do you mean just "overall match placement"?  I see "competitive" as "a high level of participation combined with a high level of skill to challenge any level of shooter".  In other words, will a Production M/GM level competitor be able to compete against a reasonable pool of and face a good challenge from his peers as well as from upcoming A and maybe even B class challengers?  

 

32 minutes ago, tacomandood said:

how do you define a “solid Production shooter”

I actually struggled with that definition before posting I think maybe a working definition could be someone who is consistently scoring at the top of their Division classification bracket while also scoring better than the lower 1/3 of the next bracket.  Of course, that assumes a decent representation of not just the division, but also brackets at a given match. Winning Production at a local match where you have 6 total Prod shooters of which only three are classified doesnt mean a lot, IMO.  Placing in the top third of your class while placing better than the bottom third of the next class at a major match, even if overall placement is in double or even triple digits represents a "solid [division] shooter" to me.

 

32 minutes ago, tacomandood said:

I guess it comes down to personal preference. Just go shoot what you want and be competitive where you want to. That’s the main reason I switched too; there were so few people shooting Production (locally)

I think that's a good point. If I had only a handful of people to compete against in my division - i would pick a more competitive one (based on my acceptance criteria of "competitive division").  

[konkapot]

In some ways it's a moot point; most new shooters struggle at the beginning with so MANY elements of the game it's almost like the first couple matches are some hellish tribal initiation rite.

 

That Texas Star at 14 yards is gonna leave a mark on your soul, regardless of whether you are shooting a Glock or a plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. 

 

Of more interest than the gun they shoot is whether they come back at all. 

[tacomandood]

8 hours ago, nasty618 said:

Winning Production at a local match where you have 6 total Prod shooters of which only three are classified doesnt mean a lot, IMO

This is exactly what I meant. 

8 hours ago, nasty618 said:

If I had only a handful of people to compete against in my division - i would pick a more competitive one

And this is what I meant also lol.

 

So yeah, I'm not discounting the fact that there are a lot of great Production shooters out there, but I was more interested in Limited because there were more shooters in total, ergo more "competitive"; a larger talent pool and more people to compare myself to. Where I'm at, everyone in Production is either B-class and below, or the one random GM that shows up every once in a while. Though I haven't shot any major matches yet nor received a classification in Limited, I'm hoping I can get a better idea of my skill level this shooting season since there will be more than 6 other shooters in my division showing up to matches I go to and almost always beat out lol. Thinking of shooting a level 2 match, if my schedule permits, so I guess we'll see how I feel after that.

Edited January 9, 2019 by tacomandood

[gino_aki]

I took the OP's question as asking what to recommend to a NEW shooter...of which I see some every month in my IPSC 101 class who really ARE novices at anything to do with guns, let alone USPSA-type shooting.   Being in a restricted state myself, I have started to recommend L-10 to them.  It starts them out in a division that they can use pretty much any stock as well as customized gun they may own or acquire, they can modify their gun to make it easier to handle, and they can use whatever rig and equipment placement they want that meets the distance from belt rules.  This helps to remove or allay some of the sensory overload they will experience at their first few matches...where I'm sure being competitive is not one of their priorities since I hammer into them the importance of safety, and the crawl-walk-run method of advancement.  Anything that contributes to easier gun-handling while they're concentrating on safely negotiating the stages is a plus in my book...they're more likely to have a successful day and return.  I actually tell them that Production division as it has evolved is an expert's division, given the level of accuracy and speed one needs to attain to be "competitive." I also stress the importance of training at home; if they only touch their guns at the range (like I do) they will only BE average like I am.  If they want to proceed with other divisions anyway, I just tell them it will take even more practice at home.  As they progress and become better at shooting and running stages they can always challenge themselves by moving to Production.  Or Revolver.

[happygunner77]

Shoot limited minor (best for beginners or new to the sport) so you don't have to worry about reloading. Just focus on the shooting part and the safety. Most new shooters get DQ for reloading w/ muzzle breaking 180º ,especially when the stages are more complex. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by happygunner77

[matir]

2 hours ago, happygunner77 said:

Shoot limited minor (best for beginners or new to the sport) so you don't have to worry about reloading. Just focus on the shooting part and the safety. Most new shooters get DQ for reloading w/ muzzle breaking 180º ,especially when the stages are more complex. 

In a 10 round magazine state, does any benefit remain in limited minor?  It seems starting with the hammer back becomes the only difference then.  (Assuming I use a production pistol.)

[tacomandood]

42 minutes ago, matir said:

In a 10 round magazine state, does any benefit remain in limited minor?  It seems starting with the hammer back becomes the only difference then.  (Assuming I use a production pistol.)

Just the type of modifications on the gun and placement of pouches and holster on the belt. For example, you can have a magwell or thumbrest in Limited, but almost no external modification in Production. Also, all mag pouches and gun must be behind the front of the hip bone in Production and no further than about 2.1” from the inside of the belt, with no limitations in Limited except that the pouches or gun can be no further than about 3.3” from the belt.

Edited January 14, 2019 by tacomandood

[happygunner77]

I missed that part about being in a 10 round state. 

[RICEARONNIE]

I tried searching through this forum but couldn't find any info on it specifically.  is stippling above the front of the trigger guard allowed for Production and Carry Optics class now?  accelerator cuts or whatever they're called?

[Sarge]

32 minutes ago, RICEARONNIE said:

I tried searching through this forum but couldn't find any info on it specifically.  is stippling above the front of the trigger guard allowed for Production and Carry Optics class now?  accelerator cuts or whatever they're called?

Legal

[cjmill87]

4 hours ago, RICEARONNIE said:

I tried searching through this forum but couldn't find any info on it specifically.  is stippling above the front of the trigger guard allowed for Production and Carry Optics class now?  accelerator cuts or whatever they're called?

 

Doesn't it look like that Accelerator cut creates a "thumbrest" in violation of Appendix D4 22.2 or D7 21.4?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, cjmill87 said:

 

Doesn't it look like that Accelerator cut creates a "thumbrest" in violation of Appendix D4 22.2 or D7 21.4?

Stippling is allowed. Thumb rests are not. That is stippling. A thumb rest is a ledge or shelf or pad or whatever.

[matir]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Stippling is allowed. Thumb rests are not. That is stippling. A thumb rest is a ledge or shelf or pad or whatever.

 

It looks like @cjmill87 was referring to the grinding above the trigger guard, in front of the takedown lever.  I don't know if it violates the rule, but I could see that as a thumb rest.

[Brooke]

Hey guy, go shoot your SPO1 in Production for a few matches until you get a "feel" for the sport. The SPO1 is a pretty good  gun out of box. Accessories for Production are cheaper (holsters,  mag pouches) and your gear will resemble your competitors. Those who recommend Limited to start generally want the higher mag capacity because they don't like reloading. Learning to reload is a valuable skill in the long run. Since you are in a 10 round state it doesn't matter anyway.

 

The accessory equipment,  gun mods, and scoring complexity in Limited requires a much better understanding in order to know what things you want to do to equipment.. Additionally 9mm in Limited shooting 9mm which is minor scoring only is completely discouraging. Some statements lack vigorous fact checking, but in general you cannot shoot minor fast enough to compete in Limited..

 

Get your feet wet before you waste a bunch of money.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, matir said:

 

It looks like @cjmill87 was referring to the grinding above the trigger guard, in front of the takedown lever.  I don't know if it violates the rule, but I could see that as a thumb rest.

I know exactly what he’s talking about. Not a thumbrest

[cjmill87]

Sarge, is there a definition of what constitutes a thumbrest somewhere?  Asking because I considered doing an Accelerator cut on my CO Glock 17 very similar to the one in the picture and was told by some local shooters (who I consider generally very knowledgeable of the rules) that it would be considered a thumbrest.  Thanks in advance.

[Sarge]

39 minutes ago, cjmill87 said:

Sarge, is there a definition of what constitutes a thumbrest somewhere?  Asking because I considered doing an Accelerator cut on my CO Glock 17 very similar to the one in the picture and was told by some local shooters (who I consider generally very knowledgeable of the rules) that it would be considered a thumbrest.  Thanks in advance.

Look at any open gun picture with one installed. I don’t see the stippling in that pic as more than a reference point possible

[Sarge]

The more I look at the pic I can’t tell if there is a ledge or  shelf above the stippling. If there is then I could see that as potentially a thumbrest

[cjmill87]

Sarge,

 

That's what I was specifically referring to, cutting/carving out a diagonal area further into the frame, that the thumb references to on top of the stippled area (creating a ledge).  That's what my understanding of the Accelerator (synonym for *thumb rest [generic]*?) Cut is. 

[Sarge]

Makes sense. Here is a better pic I guess?

[RICEARONNIE]

Makes sense. Here is a better pic I guess?

Gotcha gotcha. So a cut like that would most likely be illegal for production or carry optics right? But the regular stippling on the grip should be legal?


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[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, RICEARONNIE said:

Gotcha gotcha. So a cut like that would most likely be illegal for production or carry optics right? But the regular stippling on the grip should be legal?


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Indeed. I would call that a thumbrest and call it against the rules for those divisions. BUT, it wouldn't hurt to send a clear pic like this one to Troy at DNROI for an official opinion.

[HCH]

20 hours ago, RICEARONNIE said:

I tried searching through this forum but couldn't find any info on it specifically.  is stippling above the front of the trigger guard allowed for Production and Carry Optics class now?  accelerator cuts or whatever they're called?

 

Im going to agree. The stippling is legal—the ledge, no so much.