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NickBlasta

New 10.2.1 and Non-Existence

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On 1/4/2019 at 9:40 PM, NickBlasta said:

 

It is neither inside or outside. It doesn't exist. 10.2.1 says I am only to get a procedural for touching something outside the shooting area, not for not-touching-inside. I can't touch something that doesn't exist, and something that doesn't exist can't be outside the shooting area. If I have a foot in the shooting area, and a foot on something that is not outside the shooting area, I should not receive a procedural for faulting, by definition.

No. If you have a foot on something that does not exist, (outside of the shooting area), you have, by this rule, your foot on the ground outside of the shooting area, as what would be under your foot if the object wasn't there (didn't exist)?

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19 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

No... I have no problem doing either. I'm perfectly able to pretend a wall stand doesn't exist. The difference is one is clearly regulated (shooting under or over a wall gets me mikes) whereas the other has no listed result.

Ah, but it does have a result...re-read the rule..."will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. " 

 

How much does a procedural cost you during a stage? Same as an A zone hit gains you. So, firing 2 shots while standing on that non existent wall foot is absolutely pointless. Fire 2 shots, you get 2 procedurals....don't make those shots A zone hits, it cost you more. 

 

Edit to clarify' By the above, when I said non existent wall foot, I meant non existent wall foot OUTSIDE THE SHOOTING AREA.

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Just now, GrumpyOne said:

No. If you have a foot on something that does not exist, (outside of the shooting area), you have, by this rule, your foot on the ground outside of the shooting area, as what would be under your foot if the object wasn't there (didn't exist)?

 

The rule doesn't make any association between a nonexistent object and your foot transfer to the ground. Running around in circles, you can say "that object is wholly beyond the shooting area" and I can say "it's not wholly beyond anything, it doesn't exist".

 

But, keep in mind, you aren't able to use a wall stand for support ever, by the text of the rule. /All/ wall supporting structures. Wall supports that are entirely inside the shooting area are also deemed to not exist and cannot be used for support. If I stand on a wall support entirely inside the shooting area (something I can't do) what's the penalty?

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1 minute ago, NickBlasta said:

 

The rule doesn't make any association between a nonexistent object and your foot transfer to the ground. Running around in circles, you can say "that object is wholly beyond the shooting area" and I can say "it's not wholly beyond anything, it doesn't exist".

 

But, keep in mind, you aren't able to use a wall stand for support ever, by the text of the rule. /All/ wall supporting structures. Wall supports that are entirely inside the shooting area are also deemed to not exist and cannot be used for support. If I stand on a wall support entirely inside the shooting area (something I can't do) what's the penalty?

No penalty, as you were wholly inside the shooting area.

 

As for the association that you speak of, perhaps we also need a rule to tell people how and when to load their mags, when to drink water on a hot day, etc. If you are failing (or have failed) to make the association that placing your foot on an object that has been deemed to "not exist" outside the shooting area (or inside for that matter) means that your foot would be on the ground, well, then....

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13 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

If I stand on a wall support entirely inside the shooting area (something I can't do) what's the penalty?

 

We divide your score by zero to obtain a corrected hit factor.

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6 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

No penalty, as you were wholly inside the shooting area.

 

As for the association that you speak of, perhaps we also need a rule to tell people how and when to load their mags, when to drink water on a hot day, etc. If you are failing (or have failed) to make the association that placing your foot on an object that has been deemed to "not exist" outside the shooting area (or inside for that matter) means that your foot would be on the ground, well, then....

 

There's no need to be condescending, my man.

 

If my foot wasn't touching something that didn't exist it'd be hovering in the air as far as I can imagine.

 

Fwiw it's going to be useful for a lot of people to reference the new shooting area rules. It used to be everything in the shooting area was shooting area - now it's not everything.

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1 minute ago, NickBlasta said:

 

There's no need to be condescending, my man.

 

If my foot wasn't touching something that didn't exist it'd be hovering in the air as far as I can imagine.

 

Fwiw it's going to be useful for a lot of people to reference the new shooting area rules. It used to be everything in the shooting area was shooting area - now it's not everything.

Perhaps the wording of the rule should have been that stepping on or using the foot of the wall as a support that is out of the shooting area to be the same as having your foot on the ground outside of the shooting area.

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1 minute ago, GrumpyOne said:

Perhaps the wording of the rule should have been that stepping on or using the foot of the wall as a support that is out of the shooting area to be the same as having your foot on the ground outside of the shooting area.

 

I definitely agree.

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Perhaps the wording of the rule should have been that stepping on or using the foot of the wall as a support that is out of the shooting area to be the same as having your foot on the ground outside of the shooting area.
Like I said earlier in the thread, it should have been declared same as ground. Then there would be no issue

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 Just like our laws, if nobody wanted to do it there wouldn’t be a rule 

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Posted (edited)

Well, I studied the video several times. And while he did not do anything specifically against the rules, at that time, he left the shooting area and did not return to it. If he left the Shooting area and did not return, At that point he remains outside the shooting area. If you shoot targets when you are outside the shooting area, that is a procedural for each shot fired. Had he put 1 foot inside the shooting area, he would have then returned to the shooting area and then I would say no penalty

Edited by gmantwo
Clarification

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3 minutes ago, gmantwo said:

Well, I studied the video several times. And while he did not do anything specifically against the rules, he left the shooting area and did not return to it. If he left the Shooting area and did not return, At that point he remains outside the shooting area. If you shoot targets when you are outside the shooting area, that is a procedural for each shot fired

The reasoning behind it was the wall was touching a fault line or inside the shooting area on the other end. That technically made the wall and anything touching it, inbounds. 

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 Yeah, I have seen people lean out with 1 foot in the shooting area and one on a wall foot like that. But I have never seen anyone stand completely on a brace like that without one foot establishing position inside

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The foot on the support was establishing "position inside." He was fully inside because he was standing on the fault line and not touching anything else. 

 

The new rule forecloses that type of maneuver, so it won't happen again. 

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IMHO it was a grievous mistake to come up with a johnny cochran interpretation of the old rules that allowed such tomfoolery. Some things just don't pass the red-face test.

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Still, it's better to have people game the rules and the organization respond by changing the rules, than to have "Failure To Do Right" in IDPA where it is completely subjective. The concept of FTDR is commendable, but the implementation is necessarily horrible because of how arbitrary the definition must be. 

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On 1/4/2019 at 10:48 PM, Gary Stevens said:

If I read this correctly, you can no longer hold the top of a wall for support such as shooting strong or weak handed. Only the edge is legal now, correct?

 

On 1/4/2019 at 11:10 PM, AlphaCharis said:

 

Yeah, it doesn't feel specific enough.  They never define "edge"... is it the whole side that's touching?  Can you still hook your foot on a wall?  

 

Meh

 

Seems that two other folks have had the same thoughts as me... and I don't seem to see a direct response to these questions, so I'll ask again, in my own words. 😜

 

The updated rules state:

 

2.2.3.4 "All such barriers are considered to represent a solid plane..."

and

10.2.1 "Only wall edges that are in direct contact with or inside the shooting area may be used for support while firing shots"

 

Does that mean you can no longer hook your foot under a wall for support?  Is it up to RO/RM interpretation?

 

For instance, with these changes, can I hook my foot under the bottom edge of the wall like I did at 5m38s into this video: 

 

 

It would seem that you could still hook your foot around the edge of wall for support since the walls do not extend to infinity horizontally, only vertically... but that hooking your foot underneath the wall or holding onto the top of the wall would not be allowed.

 

I understand the intent of the rules, but not sure of the side effects.

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Until they define edge I don't think you can do anything except touch the outer edge of a wall, no hooking (since that's beyond the edge). I imagine, logically, touching the inside of a port would be okay since it's an inside edge, but it's not specifically allowed either.

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Would max get a procedural for touching this wall foot?

According to the new rule, the wall foot is a wall foot and hence touching it is a ding.

"All wall or platform supporting structures, including, but not limited to: feet, braces, angle supports, chains, cables etc., are deemed to be non-existent and cannot be used for support."

 

Nowhere does it say support structures can be touched in any circumstance inside or outside a shooting area.


These seems unintentional as this wall foot has no tactile feel and little visual indication they might be touching the wall foot.

I'm also particularly concerned about what is deemed to be "support structure" with regards to a port in a wall just like Nick.

 

49342361_10156812470531878_1153349004176654336_o.jpg

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2 hours ago, PigSnowball said:

Would max get a procedural for touching this wall foot?

According to the new rule, the wall foot is a wall foot and hence touching it is a ding.

"All wall or platform supporting structures, including, but not limited to: feet, braces, angle supports, chains, cables etc., are deemed to be non-existent and cannot be used for support."

 

Nowhere does it say support structures can be touched in any circumstance inside or outside a shooting area.


These seems unintentional as this wall foot has no tactile feel and little visual indication they might be touching the wall foot.

I'm also particularly concerned about what is deemed to be "support structure" with regards to a port in a wall just like Nick.

 

 

As far as I understand, yes. However I feel it's necessary to distinguish between "touching" (like where dipping a toe to the ground outside the shooting area will make you fault and get a procedural), and "gaining support from" where a toe touch is probably not worthy. But if you put your foot on a support to where you are putting some pressure on it while firing (so it is by definition supporting you) that would be a procedural.

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7 hours ago, PigSnowball said:

Would max get a procedural for touching this wall foot?

According to the new rule, the wall foot is a wall foot and hence touching it is a ding.

"All wall or platform supporting structures, including, but not limited to: feet, braces, angle supports, chains, cables etc., are deemed to be non-existent and cannot be used for support."

 

Nowhere does it say support structures can be touched in any circumstance inside or outside a shooting area.

 

 

touching is not the same as using for support. I would say touching or standing on a flat wall foot that is basically flush with the ground would not consitute support.

 

OTOH, if the wall foot is raised several inches, and standing on it gives you a better/different view, or is somehow different from the plain old ground, then I would call that support.

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The edge of the wall or structure must touch, or be completely inside of, the shooting area in order to be used for support. 

 

As I read this part of the rule, anything totally inside the fault lines can be used in any fashion.  The questionable part would be any parts that extend outside of the fault lines.  The last sentence does state that touching is allowed as along as you  are not gaining support from supports that touch the fault lines.  

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The edge of the wall or structure must touch, or be completely inside of, the shooting area in order to be used for support. 
 
As I read this part of the rule, anything totally inside the fault lines can be used in any fashion.  The questionable part would be any parts that extend outside of the fault lines.  The last sentence does state that touching is allowed as along as you  are not gaining support from supports that touch the fault lines.  
Wouldn't be an issue if they just said they were "ground". But even then it's inside the shooting area even by today's rules so it should be fine.

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19 hours ago, N3WWN said:

2.2.3.4 "All such barriers are considered to represent a solid plane..."

and

10.2.1 "Only wall edges that are in direct contact with or inside the shooting area may be used for support while firing shots"

 

Does that mean you can no longer hook your foot under a wall for support?  Is it up to RO/RM interpretation?

 

Is 2.2.3.4 changed for 2019? I don't know why hooking your foot under a wall in the way you did would be legal in the first place unless it is a wall that you are allowed to shoot under. Walls extend to the ground even if the physical prop does not; if you can't shoot under it because it is "solid", why should you be able to use that opening as support? If that opening exists when you aren't trying to shoot through it then we have an inconsistent application of existence. If it is closed at all times then that's definitely not a legal move... 

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2 hours ago, Poppa Bear said:

The edge of the wall or structure must touch, or be completely inside of, the shooting area in order to be used for support. 

 

As I read this part of the rule, anything totally inside the fault lines can be used in any fashion.  The questionable part would be any parts that extend outside of the fault lines.  The last sentence does state that touching is allowed as along as you  are not gaining support from supports that touch the fault lines.  

 

The edge of the wall is what is it is allowing you to use if it's inside the shooting area. Not the entire wall if the edge is inside.

 

Next sentence says you can't touch the wall supports anyway.

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