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happygunner77

Opening/closing ports during make ready

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Posted (edited)

Can anyone help me find the rule number for this? Someone said this was a procedural penalty. Thanks. Can't seem to find the key words. 

 

Edit

Yes, my example is standing at start position, command make ready, taking sight pictures, port within arms reach but doesn't activate anything other than expose a few targets. I opened it and closed it again before the beep. I was trying to see which is faster in engaging the targets either by opening the port with weak hand while drawing or pushing the port door with the muzzle to open. Opening/closing the port during make ready was the question. 

 

Edited by happygunner77

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Ask the ro to show you the rule.  To me if it’s not stated in the wsb then it’s a go.  Not sure if it’s even in the rules and I’m a ro.  I’ll see if I can find later.

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Let me make sure I understand this...

You are standing in the start position within reach of a port that is just and open/close port. The port does not activate anything.

And the RO said if you open or close it during the make ready it is a procedural?

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3 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

You are standing in the start position within reach of a port that is just and open/close port.

 

Interesting, 8.7.1 does not tie you to the start position unless you are taking a sight picture. 

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Interesting, 8.7.1 does not tie you to the start position unless you are taking a sight picture. 


Check 8.3.1.1

It does restrict moving without RO approval

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Another example of, “let’s see what else I can do to make this game less fun”

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Isn’t there something about disallowing the competitor from resetting the stage prior to shooting? Opening and closing a port would be a reset, and could be advantageous, especially with a sticky/resistant mechanism.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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56 minutes ago, BZ919 said:

Isn’t there something about disallowing the competitor from resetting the stage prior to shooting? Opening and closing a port would be a reset, and could be advantageous, especially with a sticky/resistant mechanism.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I always open and close ports and doors (not used as activators) sometime during the walk through, it can be advantageous particularly with doors that do not swing full open & sticky mechanisms (as you noted). Last time I worked a stage at a level 2 there were 3 ports & pretty much every shooter got the feel of them, but during the walk through not after make ready. 

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3 hours ago, RadarTech said:

 


Check 8.3.1.1

It does restrict moving without RO approval

 

 

A procedural penalty is not correct for 8.3.1.1 anyway - as far as I understand the RO can simply tell you not to take a step again, which if you disobey 10.6 could apply.

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A procedural penalty is not correct for 8.3.1.1 anyway - as far as I understand the RO can simply tell you not to take a step again, which if you disobey 10.6 could apply.



Correct there is no procedural... there is no FTDR in USPSA..
Only said 8.3.1.1 for the moving away from start position...

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Since the "Make Ready" command signals the start of the Course of Fire, the only two things I see that can't be done once that command is given are firing shots and moving away from the start position.  I don't see anything in the rules that would prohibit opening a port that is with reach, even if it does activate a moving target.  The prohibition could be written into the WSB.

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10.6.1 "failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official" if they tell you not to and you do it anyway.

 

Then you get to try and convince the RM or Arb committee the RO's instruction wasn't 'reasonable'.

 

Or they could try 4.5.1 'interference'.

 

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at any time.  Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

 

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10.6.1 does not authorize officials to change rules and there is no interference under 4.5.1.

 

If a prop is within reach and there is nothing in the WSB, it's fair game after "Make Ready" as long as no other rule is violated. Simple solution? Don't have props within arm's reach (virtually never happens anyways), or, put it into WSB. This about covers all possibilities.

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4 minutes ago, IVC said:

put it into WSB

 

This covers nearly every single issue discussed in this sub forum. Put it clearly in the WSB and there is little to debate.

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6 hours ago, shred said:

10.6.1 "failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official" if they tell you not to and you do it anyway.

 

Then you get to try and convince the RM or Arb committee the RO's instruction wasn't 'reasonable'.

 

Or they could try 4.5.1 'interference'.

 

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at any time.  Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

 

Shred nice to see your post.  

 

I think you nailed with 4.5.1

 

Having been to a couple of Nationals ports doors etc.  I remember that we were allowed to stuff activated once at the start.  We could try the ports, door etc. between reset but once reset we could not activate the prop.  This is just a subset situation of the original question.

 

So if before the beep, a shooter opens a port which is only supposed to be opened after the start of the COF I would not start the timer and reset the course as designed.  Everyone should have the same start.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the responses guys. Yes, my example is standing at start position, command make ready, taking sight pictures, port within arms reach but doesn't activate anything other than expose a few targets. I opened it and closed it again before the beep. I was trying to see which is faster in engaging the targets either by opening the port with weak hand while drawing or pushing the port door with the muzzle to open. Opening/closing the port during make ready was the question. 

 

I saw 4.5.1 but wasn't sure. Thanks again guys. 

Edited by happygunner77

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4 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Shred nice to see your post.  

 

I think you nailed with 4.5.1

 

Having been to a couple of Nationals ports doors etc.  I remember that we were allowed to stuff activated once at the start.  We could try the ports, door etc. between reset but once reset we could not activate the prop.  This is just a subset situation of the original question.

 

So if before the beep, a shooter opens a port which is only supposed to be opened after the start of the COF I would not start the timer and reset the course as designed.  Everyone should have the same start.

 

 

While I agree, I must point out that the “start of the COF” is the MAKE READY command. Thus, as much as I hate to admit it, it seems like a loophole?

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Posted (edited)

After make ready but before beep, would you let someone briefly pick up (and replace) an object they were required to carry on the stage? I would say so. So you should also be able to open and close a port as long as it doesn't require any other reset.

 

OTOH, if you are still doing your walkthrough instead of making ready, perhaps you should ask to be moved down in the order.

Edited by motosapiens

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On 1/4/2019 at 8:04 PM, happygunner77 said:

Thanks for the responses guys. Yes, my example is standing at start position, command make ready, taking sight pictures, port within arms reach but doesn't activate anything other than expose a few targets. I opened it and closed it again before the beep. I was trying to see which is faster in engaging the targets either by opening the port with weak hand while drawing or pushing the port door with the muzzle to open. Opening/closing the port during make ready was the question. 

 

I saw 4.5.1 but wasn't sure. Thanks again guys. 

Bit off topic,, but be careful with that, seen more than one trip to Dairy Queen for sweeping the weak hand when using it to open port at same time as drawing,  Id probably wack with weak hand THEN Draw.. Im not much for beating things with my muzzle.

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I opened a port with the muzzle once thinking it would be faster and it knocked the gun just out of battery and wouldn’t fire. Definitely not faster when you have to whack the back of the slide to get it to work again.

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:19 AM, Sarge said:

While I agree, I must point out that the “start of the COF” is the MAKE READY command. Thus, as much as I hate to admit it, it seems like a loophole?

What about the one step rule ?

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On 1/4/2019 at 10:19 PM, Sarge said:

While I agree, I must point out that the “start of the COF” is the MAKE READY command. Thus, as much as I hate to admit it, it seems like a loophole?

nice  point

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I personally would not apply a procedural as long as you closed the port again. And I wouldn’t start the timer until you did. 

If you issue the “make ready”, and the competitor again moves, or changes position, you simply issue the “make ready” again when he/she has resettled

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4 hours ago, EEH said:

What about the one step rule ?

 

Just now, gmantwo said:

I personally would not apply a procedural as long as you closed the port again. And I wouldn’t start the timer until you did. 

If you issue the “make ready”, and the competitor again moves, or changes position, you simply issue the “make ready” again when he/she has resettled

Maybe I missed the point of the OP. I thought the issue was a shooter standing in front of a closed port and at make ready he just opened it so he wouldn’t have to after the beep? 

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