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Draw, first shot speed


jskd82

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My observations have been around the speed of the weak hand is paramount to a faster draw.  I have seen a lot of shooters be slow with their weak hand getting in front of their body before the gun leaves the holster. Their gun is out looking for the support hand.  I would suggest the support hand is ready to grip the gun before the gun leaves the holster or about the same time.

 

Try moving both hands in conjunction with each other during dry fire draws i.e., the weak hand at the center of your chest (or there abouts) when your strong hand is gripping the gun.  

 

Just one of many techniques to increase your draw speed.

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In order to be fast and accurate, you need to work on accurate first. Forget speed for now. Just practice getting the gun between your eyes and the target smoothly, with the sights aligned on the target. You need to start slowly and really focus on the movement and and where the gun "WANTS" to point. If the gun doesn't WANT to line up on the target without adjustments, you need to take a good hard look at your grip. You can do all of this in dry fire any time you have free time. Put a 1" target paster on a wall. stand back 15 ft and practice drawing the gun to that spot. Focus on the dot and bring the sights to your line of sight straight. The more you practice that, the easier it will be to do it faster. In the end you'll be doing it dead on without even trying. THAT is when you'll get fast.


I can think of a number of top instructors who would disagree with you there.

Your advice sounds awefully like “slow down and get your hits”


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1 hour ago, perttime said:

"Get your hits" is pretty important for getting a good score.

 

Indeed. I see so many people fall into the trap of, "If I'm fast enough it will make up for all the misses". It simply doesn't work that way. Far more important to build a system of stance, grip, trigger control and a gun that indexes well, Then hitting you marks becomes almost automatic. Never shoot faster than you can see you sights on the target and if you can't call your shots as they are happening, you're going too fast.

 

EDIT:  Just remembered the best piece of advice I ever got from a competitor who beat me. It was the second steel match I ever shot and I was sprayin' and prayin'. Smoke & Hope was never a more appropriate stage name for me back then. I finished the stage packed my gear and as I walked off the firing line the man who was leading the match stopped me. He said, "You need to learn how to NOT squeeze the trigger."

 

It was 6 months before I understood what he meant. Don't squeeze the shot off til you see your sights centered on the target.

Edited by Dranoel
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There is one problem with "getting your hits" - it's great advice for those who are serious about their training and want to advance, but it is also a trap for those who are stuck in the D/C class. 

 

I've seen way too many shooters who use the "I want to get my hits" as an excuse for not getting faster. Everyone can shoot a USPSA course accurately enough to get all A-s. Targets are large and distances are moderate. It's not a bullseye competition. A person who cannot shoot an A on any given random target has no business owning a gun. The problem is "shooting an A fast (enough)." That's where virtually all USPSA training is - being able to do simple tasks fast.

 

 

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Really great dialogue going here. And a little different than what I often hear.

The mantra often is "go fast because you can't overcome time with hits." At least i see this posted quite a bit. It seems there is some truth in it but I think it's based on the assumption that the shooter is competent enough to shoot decently at speed. A newb taking heeding this advice will not fare well I suppose.

I have spent a long time with training focused on getting the tightest groups possible. I think this is what a lot of new gun owners that train aspire to do. Then I found some USPSA matches on YouTube and said, "WoW. I want to do that." I changed my training.

My big struggle right now is the transition between shooting tight groups at a leisurely pace and learning to shoot well under the pressure of time. One thing I really struggled with is learning what a "good enough" sight picture and get my brain to break the shot. I was so used to trying to get that perfect aim to get the perfect bullseye that my brain just would trigger that message to my fingers to let go. I've gotten over this but now sometimes I shoot too soon, before I see that my sight picture is acceptable. And hell, I sometimes have thrown shots where I don't even remember seeing my front sight.

The thing is that it's not that I'm not looking at my sights. I am. They just don't register sometimes. It may be that this is very new to me so I kind of still have the deer in headlights thing going on. Just brain overload.

The one good thing is that I can manage to hit some part of the target even when I'm throwing shots. I can index my gun pretty well so the muzzle is at least in the vicinity of the cardboard. As someone said, if you can't hit a USPSA target you probably shooting be competing.

Sounds like I just have to find that balance where I am just on the edge of shooting too fast. Like with anything. You get to where you are really good and then you pushed just a little more so you have one foot on the side of "chaos". That's how you get better.

Also, focusing on doing everything fast when you're NOT actively shooting so you make up time to slow down when you are.

What do you all think? Is my theory correct?

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In practice, if you are fast and missing, you will be painfully aware of the lack of performance and what you need to work on. If you are slow and accurate, the lack of speed won't be nearly as obvious until you get to a match. It's just much easier to get stuck with being slow than with being inaccurate. Just my 2c. 

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11 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

... ...
Sounds like I just have to find that balance where I am just on the edge of shooting too fast. Like with anything. You get to where you are really good and then you pushed just a little more so you have one foot on the side of "chaos". That's how you get better.

Also, focusing on doing everything fast when you're NOT actively shooting so you make up time to slow down when you are.

What do you all think? Is my theory correct?
 

 

I think you are on the right track. However, I'd try to stay away from the idea of shooting fast or slow. Instead, I'd focus on seeing just enough. See fast: find the target, see enough to put your bullets on that target, or on the A/C zones.

 

What exactly you need to see depends on the target: how far it is, awkward position, possibly also any hard cover or N/S targets.

 

Last season, I got my best percentages at stages that had tight shots, and it was obvious to me that I had to take my time to get the hits. Longer distance and/or N/S targets. My worst were when I just thought I could hit those targets when I saw them, but rushed so that I didn't see my sights on those targets. I did just OK on targets where seeing the shape of my gun on the target was enough.

 

Not wasting time when not shooting is an obvious place for improvement. I can scoot when there is some distance to cover - but I take a long time to get the first shot when I arrive.

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14 hours ago, IVC said:

There is one problem with "getting your hits" - it's great advice for those who are serious about their training and want to advance, but it is also a trap for those who are stuck in the D/C class. 

 

I've seen way too many shooters who use the "I want to get my hits" as an excuse for not getting faster. Everyone can shoot a USPSA course accurately enough to get all A-s. Targets are large and distances are moderate. It's not a bullseye competition. A person who cannot shoot an A on any given random target has no business owning a gun. The problem is "shooting an A fast (enough)." That's where virtually all USPSA training is - being able to do simple tasks fast.

 

 

edit: IVC is right, didn´t read the first sentence ;) 

Edited by bimmer1980
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  • 3 weeks later...
 
I think you are on the right track. However, I'd try to stay away from the idea of shooting fast or slow. Instead, I'd focus on seeing just enough. See fast: find the target, see enough to put your bullets on that target, or on the A/C zones.
 
What exactly you need to see depends on the target: how far it is, awkward position, possibly also any hard cover or N/S targets.
 
Last season, I got my best percentages at stages that had tight shots, and it was obvious to me that I had to take my time to get the hits. Longer distance and/or N/S targets. My worst were when I just thought I could hit those targets when I saw them, but rushed so that I didn't see my sights on those targets. I did just OK on targets where seeing the shape of my gun on the target was enough.
 
Not wasting time when not shooting is an obvious place for improvement. I can scoot when there is some distance to cover - but I take a long time to get the first shot when I arrive.
Thanks perttime.

So I shot my first match a week ago. I did better than I thought. Lots of room for improvement though. Some of the things I realized from doing my first match are on par with your reply.

1. I think I focused way too much time trying to perfect my draw and getting that first hit as fast as possible. Although important, I would have been better spending time getting more efficient at other stuff that is done more often in a match that the draw. Hell, two of the stages we didn't even draw from the holster.

2. Moving faster between target arrays. Now, I knew I was moving slow. I did so purposely because I didn't want to have any safety violations and get a DQ. But I also saw that I need to practice running and stopping, shooting efficiently and safely with a gun in my hand. I've done it but I need to get to where I'm not thinking so much about it.

3. Reloads. Reloads. Reloads. Fortunately, I had the frame of mind to execute all my reloads as preplanned for each stage. But I notice in video that they were sloppy, I was bringing my gun down too low and I was waiting too long to start my reload. I would start almost as I was approaching the next array rather than right after completing the last.

4. Knowing what type of sight picture I need for the target type and distance. I realized that for full targets at sub 10 feet, all I really need is to see the muzzle indexed at what I'm shooting. At about 10 yards, one I see that front sight between the rear posts, I am good. Then there is everything else that I need to focus a bit more.

Plenty of other stuff but that's my focus in training now in the order that I think will improve my score based on countless watching of my match videos. Really looking forward to practicing and see the results at my next match in a few weeks.

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Most of the classifiers are where you need stationary speed from the holster and quick hits on targets.

As you probably noticed even from your first match, most stages will have space to move to engage the first targets or required movement such as turning from up range before the first target is engaged. 

Practicing for speed from the holster to first hit is great for dryfire and improving reaction to the beep, but be sure to integrate getting a solid grip and draw while on the move to the arrays. 

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Most of the classifiers are where you need stationary speed from the holster and quick hits on targets.
As you probably noticed even from your first match, most stages will have space to move to engage the first targets or required movement such as turning from up range before the first target is engaged. 
Practicing for speed from the holster to first hit is great for dryfire and improving reaction to the beep, but be sure to integrate getting a solid grip and draw while on the move to the arrays. 
Good point. I will start incorporating some drills to practice stages where the start requires you to immediately move towards the first target array. I can get a pretty consistent grip on my stationary draw and even when facing up range and turning but I have practiced much with drawing while on the move. Will work on it.

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On 1/12/2019 at 3:40 PM, anonymouscuban said:

Really great dialogue going here. And a little different than what I often hear.

The mantra often is "go fast because you can't overcome time with hits." At least i see this posted quite a bit. It seems there is some truth in it but I think it's based on the assumption that the shooter is competent enough to shoot decently at speed. A newb taking heeding this advice will not fare well I suppose.

I have spent a long time with training focused on getting the tightest groups possible. I think this is what a lot of new gun owners that train aspire to do. Then I found some USPSA matches on YouTube and said, "WoW. I want to do that." I changed my training.

My big struggle right now is the transition between shooting tight groups at a leisurely pace and learning to shoot well under the pressure of time. One thing I really struggled with is learning what a "good enough" sight picture and get my brain to break the shot. I was so used to trying to get that perfect aim to get the perfect bullseye that my brain just would trigger that message to my fingers to let go. I've gotten over this but now sometimes I shoot too soon, before I see that my sight picture is acceptable. And hell, I sometimes have thrown shots where I don't even remember seeing my front sight.

The thing is that it's not that I'm not looking at my sights. I am. They just don't register sometimes. It may be that this is very new to me so I kind of still have the deer in headlights thing going on. Just brain overload.

The one good thing is that I can manage to hit some part of the target even when I'm throwing shots. I can index my gun pretty well so the muzzle is at least in the vicinity of the cardboard. As someone said, if you can't hit a USPSA target you probably shooting be competing.

Sounds like I just have to find that balance where I am just on the edge of shooting too fast. Like with anything. You get to where you are really good and then you pushed just a little more so you have one foot on the side of "chaos". That's how you get better.

Also, focusing on doing everything fast when you're NOT actively shooting so you make up time to slow down when you are.

What do you all think? Is my theory correct?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

The trick is to practice about 25 percent on the ragged edge, that's what makes your brain and eyes faster, but you need to compete well below that. USPSA is a marathon, you can wreck an entire match with one bad stage. The rest of training is always grooving that good shot, which does change based on the Target at hand. Ten yards, you just need to see your front sight somewhere in your rear sight. Twenty yards, you need to see some air on both sides.  Fifty yards, you need to see the corners.

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  • 3 weeks later...
20 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

That is a false statement


That's something we learned and were able to see for ourselves in a recent class. Being tense is much slower. Relaxing your upper body allowed for demonstrably faster draw times.

I was previously in the 1.4-1.5s camp, but after solid instruction, I was able to "let go" and make two .84 runs at 7 yards in the A zone. They weren't perfect, but I made A's. Now, after lots of practice, I can make first round hit in the A around .95 consistently. Integrating that into drawing with movement is a whole different story.

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I've seen that practicing going a lot faster helped, however :

 

holster, grip can matter

A lot of dry fire will help

holster placement is one of the most important factors I've found.

 

I'm still training, but I can draw pretty consistently under 0.90 at less than 5 yards and under 1.50 at less than 20 yards. Sight alignment itself may require 0.20 to 0.40s 

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After a long layoff from competitive shooting due to adding 3 kids to the family I'm working my way back into shooting by going in to Steel Challenge and then back into USPSA.  I like to do a combination of dry fire and airsoft.  I'm pretty lucky that I found a 2011 style airsoft that matches the grip dimensions of my CK arms pretty closely and fits in my holster.  I find that with dryfire draw practice it's easy to cheat and say you hit the target.   With an airsoft and a small target it's much easier to identify when you aren't picking up the target correctly.

 

I go back and forth between timing my draw to shot as normal, as well as setting par times that I need to meet to push me to the next level.  Once I feel like I'm hitting that next level of speed I make sure to verify with the airsoft to make sure I'm actually getting hits and not just telling myself that I'm getting hits.

 

I think the key to getting faster is to do a combination of slow to reinforce technique and fundamentals combined with pushing yourself to reach the next level of speed.  I'm not fast by any means, but I'm faster than I was and I'm seeing steady improvement.

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On 1/6/2019 at 10:18 AM, anonymouscuban said:

OK. So here's the dilemma I have. I have done exactly the dry fire drill you mention quite a lot. If I am using terminology correctly, my goal is to develop an index with my draw. Basically, muscle memory so that I can draw, bring the gun up to my line of sight and have an acceptable sight picture with little to no adjustment needed. Consistently.

I can do this pretty damn well with my CZ P-01. But with my SP-01, I can't. What I am finding is that with the latter, my sight picture is left of the target often. My rear sight is fine. It's that the muzzle is pointing left. I then need to adjust which takes time.

When analyzing my draw with both pistols, the difference is grip. With the P-01, I get a nice solid, full grip of it everytime. With the SP-01, I don't. The P-01 has always felt perfect in my hand. My SP-01 is nice but it doesn't feel as "natural". I think it's a combination of the size of the grip and the weight but I'm a better shooter with it.

So this seems like an easy fix... run with the P-01. But am I putting myself at a disadvantage running a compact in Production where it seems the majority run full size pistols?

Logically, I think since I'm new I should run the P-01 since I shoot that better and I'm going to be at the bottom of the score card no matter what I choose. My real goal at this point is to be safe and enjoy myself.

What do you guys think about me running with the P-01?

Do you have any insights as to why I struggle with the SP-01 and not the P-01?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

TPC has a good video on YouTube for natural point of aim. If you are pointing to the left st a 5 yard target, set yourself up so you bring your arms up to exact point you want to hit. 

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On 1/7/2019 at 1:17 PM, JJB05 said:

dry fire, dry fire and more dry fire...practice and speed will come.

Depends on how you dryfire. I think too many go through the motions and don’t really put their focus when they shoot or dryfire. Speed only comes when you use your vision. Being able to call your shoot based on distance and difficulty determines the speed at which you shoot. You push speed in practice so that you can experience what you need to see, then execute the pace that you can call your shot in matches. 

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On 1/12/2019 at 12:06 PM, IVC said:

There is one problem with "getting your hits" - it's great advice for those who are serious about their training and want to advance, but it is also a trap for those who are stuck in the D/C class. 

 

I've seen way too many shooters who use the "I want to get my hits" as an excuse for not getting faster. Everyone can shoot a USPSA course accurately enough to get all A-s. Targets are large and distances are moderate. It's not a bullseye competition. A person who cannot shoot an A on any given random target has no business owning a gun. The problem is "shooting an A fast (enough)." That's where virtually all USPSA training is - being able to do simple tasks fast.

 

 

People get stuck because they focus on speed and not vision. They see a better skilled shooter who can call their shots and they mimic the pace and just double tap. Instead of learning proper stance, grip and trigger control. All three of those fundamentals are dynamic based on the shot being fired at the current moment. 

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