advice with first AR15 build

[jmac2112]

Hi,

 

I've been shooting pistol for a couple of years now (USPSA, Steel Challenge, other), and now I've decided to get an AR15.  I like building things, so I decided to do this myself, but I could use a few pointers.  

 

First of all, this will be used primarily for competition and general range use.  I'm trying to keep the total cost below $1000 (minus optics), but that's not hard and fast.  I'd also like it to be fairly light wieght, and with decent accuracy out to 400 yards.   In the end, I want a gun that is a pleasure to shoot without breaking the bank.  

 

Here are the parts I have ordered so far:

 

M4E1 Builder Set w/ ATLAS S-ONE Handguard (stripped lower with integral trigger guard, assembled upper with FA, 12” M-Lok handguard)

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-builder-set-atlas-s-one-handguard

 

I also plan to get this:

Match Series- 16" Gunner, 223 Wylde, Mid-Length, 416R, Nitride, 5R,

Nickel Teflon Extension  (https://faxonfirearms.com/match-series-16-gunner-223-wylde-mid-length-416r-nitride-5r-nickel-teflon-extension/) 

 

I've been told that a mid-length gas system is the way to go for my purposes, but I need to know exactly what that means.  Specifically, I am unsure what to buy in terms of the buffer/spring/buffer tube.  Do I want a carbine setup, or rifle?  Standard buffer, or one of the heavier ones?  Brownells sells this one, which seems to be meant for general purposes:

 

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/buffer-tube-parts/buffer-tubes/ar-15-m16-mil-spec-buffer-tube-assembly-prod56055.aspx

 

Also, is there any benefit to getting an adjustable gas block if I keep everything else stock?  Or is that like adding a fart-can muffler to a Honda Civic and expecting to go faster?

 

And lastly, please feel free to correct me if I'm not even asking the right questions!

 

Thanks,

 

John

 

[DesertTortoise]

The AR runs off gas vented back through the gas block into the bolt. Typically barrels are made with an oversized gas port to ensure proper function by providing more gas than is actually needed. You can deal with that by using adjustable gas block or by adding to the weight of the buffer.

 

For competition guns, adjustable gas is preferred because you can then reduce the reciprocating mass by using a lightweight bolt tuned to your ammo. The same idea as lightening cuts and tuned springs on a pistol.

 

you can be very competitive with a standard gas & recoil system though. 

 

The only must haves in my opinion are a muzzle brake and good trigger. 

 

For one of your other questions, the mil spec carbine receiver extension (buffer tube) gives you the most stock options. Id also buy the standard buffer and only go heavier if your brass is being launched into orbit (assuming you didn't go with adjustable gas)

[jmac2112]

Thanks for the reply, DesertTortoise!  If I could pick your brain a bit more:

 

1) What do you think of the Brownells lightweight BCG?  

https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=078-000-405WB +M16+Lightweight+Bolt+Carrier+Group+Nickel+Boron&ksubmit=y

 

2) Does this Brownells buffer kit seem like a good place to start?  It has a 3.0 oz. buffer:

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/buffer-tube-parts/buffer-tubes/ar-15-m16-mil-spec-buffer-tube-assembly-prod56055.aspx

 

3) What do you think about the Miculek compensator?

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/muzzle-devices/compensators-amp-muzzle-brakes/ar-15-miculek-compensator-22-caliber-prod123146.aspx

 

4) Any recommendations for a good trigger, preferably under $200?

 

Thanks!

Edited January 2, 2019 by jmac2112

[DesertTortoise]

I haven't used 1-3, but they do look good to me! Those coated bolts carrier groups are really easy to clean which is nice. 

 

For #4 I like the velocity drop in trigger ($132 on brownells). I have friends who used a rise armament trigger and liked them ($98 on brownells). 

 

If you get an adjustable gas block, try and get one that adjusts from the front. I think superlative arms is the favorite one right now ($82). I have a front adjustable one from a company that went under and a side adjustable seekins that lines up just right so I can't get to it through the rail. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by DesertTortoise

[Steve133]

Since there was some discussion about adjustable gas blocks earlier, I'll add that if you almost certainly want one if you're getting a lightweight BCG. Everything will still work with a nonadjustable block and the lightweight BCG, but you can't really get the benefits that Tortoise was talking about without being able to fiddle with the gas system.

 

I've used the larger version of the Miculek comp on a .308 - it works fine. It's not the absolute best performer out there, but it's really solid from a price/performance standpoint.

 

I've seen the entry-level Rise Armament triggers that Tortoise was talking about go on sale for as little as $75-$80, so it might be worth it to wait for a sale. I've got one that seems to work okay - haven't really shot the build that it's in much, so I can't speak to the longevity of it. If you want to get closer to $200, I'm actually a fan of the Elftmann ELF SE, which is normally in the ballpark of $160. For $190-200, you could also go with one of the Hiperfire Hipertouch models, which are also very nice. There are PLENTY other options in that price range, but that's what I have personal experience with.

 

Lots of things in a rifle build come down to personal preference, but that's especially true of the trigger. If you have any range buddies that have ARs with nice triggers, it might be worth asking to try some of them out. If there's a local shop that sells a lot of AR parts, they might have some demo units set up, but that's kind of rare to find. If you can't try before you buy, it's not the end of the world, either, but it's always helped me gain a little more confidence when buying new stuff....

[JayDee]

I prefer the feel of a rifle length system, but intermediate can be made to feel just as nice with low mass bcg and adj. gas block.  

 

re: #2, that is a fine place to start. I use H2 buffers in most of my rifles and they work great. 

re: #3, miculek comp works great and is the least expensive one out there that actually works. 

re: #4, I've had great performance from CMC triggers. <$200, good options for trigger profile, smooth break, crisp reset, easy installation. 

[jmac2112]

OK, thanks to both of you for your replies!  One point that I'm not entirely clear on is whether or not I would need to mess with the standard buffer and spring if I were using a lightweight BCG and adjustable gas block.  One of DesertTortoise's replies above makes me thing that this would not be necessary, but I just wanted to check.  

 

Also, from what I'm seeing on Brownells, it looks like their lightweight BCG is very reasonably priced even compared to "regular" BCGs.  It looks like only the most basic units are cheaper.  Am I missing something?  Seems odd.

 

Thanks,

 

John

[jmac2112]

Thanks, JayDee!  Regarding your use of H2 buffers, is that in addition to a low mass BCG and adjustable gas block, or is that with the standard setup?

[Steve133]

7 minutes ago, jmac2112 said:

OK, thanks to both of you for your replies!  One point that I'm not entirely clear on is whether or not I would need to mess with the standard buffer and spring if I were using a lightweight BCG and adjustable gas block.  One of DesertTortoise's replies above makes me thing that this would not be necessary, but I just wanted to check.  

 

Also, from what I'm seeing on Brownells, it looks like their lightweight BCG is very reasonably priced even compared to "regular" BCGs.  It looks like only the most basic units are cheaper.  Am I missing something?  Seems odd.

 

Thanks,

 

John

 

Spring you probably don't need to mess with. Heavy buffers are generally used to tame the recoil impulse of an overgassed rifle. If you're going with adjustable gas and a lightweight carrier, there's no need for a heavy buffer. No need to go crazy and start going after super-lightweight options either, but I've had good success with a standard carbine buffer and spring.

 

I don't think you're missing anything regarding the relative pricing of the BCGs. Unless you're talking about something really out there, like a titanium model, I've observed that the biggest price differences are between different manufacturers - if the same manufacturer makes both a standard-mass and a low-mass carrier, the price difference isn't that extreme, in my experience. I'm guessing that the in-house Brownell's model is fairly cheap just because it's kind of the equivalent of a generic brand and not one of the big high-speed, low-drag names.

[Southpaw]

That Brownells buffer kit is probably fine. Primary Arms often has an Aero buffer kit on sale for less, around $27 I think I paid recently. With buffer tube just be sure you get mil spec size, not commercial size, as less stock options for commercial buffer tubes.

 

I use Miculek brakes and think they work pretty well, but haven't tried others to compare. I just can't justify paying double or more for other ones when Miculek works very well.

 

For trigger check out LaRue MBT, for $87 it's a great deal.

 

For a regular non lightweight BCG Palmetto State Armory might still have their premium one on sale for $59.

[TonytheTiger]

I recently got one of the Brownells lightweight BCG's. I don't have many rounds on it yet but I'm very impressed for the $90 I paid for it.

 

I think good triggers start at CMC, around $170, and go from there. I had one of those $100 Rise Armament triggers and its s#!t. Wait till PA has a sale on CMC's and grab one of the 2.5lb units for $130 or so.

[jmac2112]

As long as I've got you all here....  Any recommendations on special tools needed for this build?  I've got a garage full of tools, and even a few (like punches) that are geared toward working on guns, but I imagine that there are some things that really require the right tool.

[DesertTortoise]

I like a non-marring gunsmith hammer (brass and nylon heads). A roll pin starter punch can be helpful.

You can buy a jig which is helpful for installing roll pins, but a roll of tape works well too. The two tricky roll pins are the gas tube and bolt release. YouTube videos may be helpful there

You'll need an armorers wrench to install the castle nut on the buffer. These usually will include built in spots to install the muzzle device and barrel nut. Barrel nuts may require a specific tool depending on the brand. A torque wrench is recommended but not required.

You'll need some type of bench block to secure the upper when you install the barrel and muzzle device. I have the wheeler one that the upper pins into. I have a plastic one that fits in the lower through the magwell, but one for the lower is not really needed.

I like vibratite (a sticky thread locker) but blue loktite is great too. Use threadlocker on everything! I like to mark bolts with a paint pen so I can see if they start to loosen up. (Especially the castle nut and hanguard bolts)

An inch pound torque wrench/driver is recommended for installing optics and small bolts, but, again is not required.
.

[jmac2112]

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions!  Southpaw brought Primary Arms to my attention, and I ended up ordering the Aero Precision mil spec carbine buffer kit, a Magpul armorer's wrench, a lower parts kit (without trigger or grip) and a Magpul Miad grip from them because their sale prices were better than the current prices on Brownells.  I have now spent all the money I can justify for the moment, but this should be enough to allow me to start building.  

[JayDee]

17 hours ago, jmac2112 said:

Thanks, JayDee!  Regarding your use of H2 buffers, is that in addition to a low mass BCG and adjustable gas block, or is that with the standard setup?

I have mostly H2 buffers in my various rifles, including the ones with adjustable gas block. This is not totally necessary, but I often swap uppers and lowers depending on the objective at hand. 

 

Desert tortoise mentions just about everything  you would need for a build. A punch made for the bolt release pin is a good investment: it's handle is flat on one side, letting you install the roll pin without marring the receiver. Well worth the $10+/- if you are going to build or work on ARs more than once. The more you build, the easier it gets

[Steve133]

18 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

I recently got one of the Brownells lightweight BCG's. I don't have many rounds on it yet but I'm very impressed for the $90 I paid for it.

 

I think good triggers start at CMC, around $170, and go from there. I had one of those $100 Rise Armament triggers and its s#!t. Wait till PA has a sale on CMC's and grab one of the 2.5lb units for $130 or so.

 

Can you please elaborate on your issues with the Rise trigger? Not trying to call you out on it at all - quite the contrary, actually. I'm just looking for more information. I don't want to keep recommending them as budget options if they're actually bad, but I'd like to be able to back that up with information that's more substantial than "this one dude on the internet said they suck". I could google it, I'm sure, but I tend to value direct input from people who actually have relevant experience more than that.

 

 

18 hours ago, jmac2112 said:

As long as I've got you all here....  Any recommendations on special tools needed for this build?  I've got a garage full of tools, and even a few (like punches) that are geared toward working on guns, but I imagine that there are some things that really require the right tool.

 

I'll add one nice-to-have to list that other people have already provided. You can definitely build an AR with minimal general gunsmithing tools, but if I had to pick just one AR-specific item to have, it would be a tool for installing the pivot pin detent. I've got one of these, but there are other options, like this one. For me, at least, that stupid detent is the only really tricky part of the whole build process, and a dedicated tool more than pays for itself in reduced frustration.

[TonytheTiger]

6 hours ago, Steve133 said:

 

Can you please elaborate on your issues with the Rise trigger? Not trying to call you out on it at all - quite the contrary, actually. I'm just looking for more information.

No issues with function, it just feels like a cheap trigger. I tested it against some other 3.5lb triggers myself and some buddies own. IIRC we had an Elftmann, CMC, Velocity, Timney, JP, a Hiperfire and the Rise that all pulled near 3.5lbs on a gauge but the Rise always felt like a 5lb trigger. It didn't have a crisp break, more overtravel, and a clunky reset. I felt one other Rise at a gun store and it felt exactly same. There's just better options in every way that don't cost that much more.

[wgj3]

One thing nobody else mentioned was that your buffer needs to match your receiver extension; if you're going with a "carbine" extension for an adjustable stock, you need a carbine length buffer of standard mass at most. If you want to use a rifle extension for the average fixed stock, then you will need the corresponding rifle-length buffer of no more than standard mass.

 

Someone mentioned gas-system length earlier in thread also. Generally, it is suggested (for gaming) to go with the longest gas system that your barrel length will allow. (14.5" barrel has mid-length gas as "longest" generally reliable option)(16" barrel has some options for intermediate length gas and there are even a few companies that offer rifle-length gas ports on 16" barrels.)

 

With LW carrier and lightened buffer system and adjustable gas block, you may be able to tune an intermediate gas upper to feel softer than a mid gas upper, but it ain't gonna be night and day difference, so I wouldn't dwell too much on this one at this point.

 

As mentioned, the Miculek comp is absolutely the best comp out there for the money. A 10% improvement in performance is going to cost 3 times as much.

 

Agree that catching the CMC triggers on sale from PA or Palmetto State is a great plan for a very respectable trigger that can be had for around $100 on sale.

 

Some heavy tape and vice grips are the best way to go with the roll pins for gas block and bolt catch. Use the tape to protect the block or receiver and use the pliers to slowly squeeze the pin into its hole.

[jmac2112]

Thanks for the input, wgj3!  The barrel I have in mind is made for mid length, so looks like I'll be going with that.    As to the trigger, I'm leaning toward the CMC based on your input among others.    And the buffer kit I bought is the carbine variety with the standard weight buffer, so it sounds like that should work fine.  

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether there is a downside to using a light weight BCG?  This will be a competition/range use gun, but I still want it to be reliable.  Did Stoner decide on the stock weight (11.5 oz., I think) just to be EXTRA SURE that the gun would go bang every time?   Will a light weight unit result in significantly more stoppages?   Or does the fact that you can tune the gas with an adjustable gas block mean that you can also reduce the amount of fouling, thereby making up for the loss of inertia?   Or do I simply not know what I'm talking about?

 

 

[Snausages32]

On 1/2/2019 at 3:28 PM, jmac2112 said:

Thanks for the reply, DesertTortoise!  If I could pick your brain a bit more:

 

1) What do you think of the Brownells lightweight BCG?  

https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=078-000-405WB +M16+Lightweight+Bolt+Carrier+Group+Nickel+Boron&amp;ksubmit=y

 

2) Does this Brownells buffer kit seem like a good place to start?  It has a 3.0 oz. buffer:

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/buffer-tube-parts/buffer-tubes/ar-15-m16-mil-spec-buffer-tube-assembly-prod56055.aspx

 

3) What do you think about the Miculek compensator?

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/muzzle-devices/compensators-amp-muzzle-brakes/ar-15-miculek-compensator-22-caliber-prod123146.aspx

 

4) Any recommendations for a good trigger, preferably under $200?

 

Thanks!

#1:  I have that exact same bolt, and I love it.  It cleans super fast/easy, and I've had 0 issues with it.  It is paired with a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block...  they work great together, no complaints.

 

#2:  A mil-spec buffer tube is a mil-spec buffer tube.  Buffers are cheap, and you can play around with them to find what you like.  I went with a JP silent capture setup (works great with the lighter bolt and adjustable gas), and got the spring kit to customize it (you don't need the spring kit).  You won't be disappointed with it, except it runs around $130 - https://www.opticsplanet.com/jp-enterprises-gen-2-silent-captured-buffer-spring-system.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiApbzhBRDKARIsAIvZue9CXp8pQ5nTVkyXmvrdD6B6u8ON2_DJhDGozpXdPwMHxJHz0ArwpkEaAu0tEALw_wcB

 

#3:  I also use the Miculek compensator.  Started the season with a Lantac Dragon, and just didn't like it...  switched to this guy, and WOW, way better.  People say you can't beat it for the price, I'll tell you it's almost impossible to beat it.  Almost...   The SJC Titan and Precision Armament M4-72 are both beasts

Look into: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/muzzle-devices/compensators-amp-muzzle-brakes/ar-15-m4-72-severe-duty-compensator-dlc-22-caliber-prod58033.aspx?avad=avant&amp;aid=170901&amp;cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-Custom+Link&amp;utm_medium=affiliate&amp;utm_source=Avantlink&amp;utm_content=NA&amp;utm_campaign=Itwine

or

https://stores.sjcguns.com/lund-sjc-223-titan-compensator/

 

#4:  I went with a single stage 3lb Timney drop in trigger, and love it.  Take a look here:  https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-drop-in-trigger-roundup/.  Some great reviews and actual data.  

 

You'll want to get a GOOD set of SOLID punches too.  Spend the extra $20, it's worth it...  Trust me, you really don't want to have a punch break or bend in the middle of your build.

 

Hope this helps...  

[DesertTortoise]

 
Does anyone have any thoughts on whether there is a downside to using a light weight BCG?  This will be a competition/range use gun, but I still want it to be reliable.  Did Stoner decide on the stock weight (11.5 oz., I think) just to be EXTRA SURE that the gun would go bang every time?   Will a light weight unit result in significantly more stoppages?   Or does the fact that you can tune the gas with an adjustable gas block mean that you can also reduce the amount of fouling, thereby making up for the loss of inertia?   Or do I simply not know what I'm talking about?
 
 

The original AR design is all about firing on full auto. It is over gassed and over weight to ensure it functions as intended on full auto.

As long as you get it set up / tuned correctly (it's not hard), you'll have a great rifle

[jmac2112]

Great!  Thanks, Snausages and DesertTortoise!  And thanks to everyone who has helped me with these questions.  I'm feeling confident that I can move forward with this build without worrying about any major problems.  

[lefty o]

just an fyi, with that handguard you likely wont be able to fit an adjustable gas block, as there is very little clearance.

[Chip3]

Superlative .625 fits fine. The .750 may fit. It is a really great hand guard. Good profile, installs easy, comes with a torque key. Been very happy with it. (looks like i may need to adjust the block if I get bored)

[jmac2112]

Thanks, Chip3!  I see you've got the clamp on version.  Do you think the set screw version would fit just as well?   I've never seen either of them up close and personal.