MemphisMechanic Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: They can do it every 2 years per the bylaws... and usually do. If you include: 1. Troy’s “interpretations” which were emailed out and stuck into back pockets of shooters everywhere (which USPSA has plainly stated they’ll be putting into the rulebook in realtime from now on.) 2. Introducing two new divisions the moment the dust settled after the election - divisions which were not mentioned while campaigning. 3. The total overhaul of Production rules which took an end-run around the two year clause by being labeled a “rules adjustment”... @bret @Patrick Scott @vluc and others who’ve mentioned it? USPSA is changing the rulebook approximately 2 to 4 times a year right now. They have a strong interest in keeping it easy to re-write and distribute. Edited January 10, 2019 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 28 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: .... How is this an issue NOW? They haven't sent out rulebooks to new members for a few years now if I'm not mistaken. Wrong, my GF joined and got a rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 53 minutes ago, bret said: Wrong, my GF joined and got a rule book. I think they have a few thousand 2014's still. May have gotten rid of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Scott Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said: If you include: 1. Troy’s “interpretations” which were emailed out and stuck into back pockets of shooters everywhere (which USPSA has plainly stated they’ll be putting into the rulebook in realtime from now on.) 2. Introducing two new divisions the moment the dust settled after the election - divisions which were not mentioned while campaigning. 3. The total overhaul of Production rules which took an end-run around the two year clause by being labeled a “rules adjustment”... @bret @Patrick Scott @vluc and others who’ve mentioned it? USPSA is changing the rulebook approximately 2 to 4 times a year right now. They have a strong interest in keeping it easy to re-write and distribute. For better or worse, we have seen a lot of rule book "changes" the past couple of years and (for better or worse) I think thats the way its going to be. Im of the opinion that if this trend continues, a digital rule book is better suited to a dynamic rules set. No more loose papers stuffed or stapled into a hardcopy. No more silly time sucking debates about something that is not in the book, but their is a seperate ruling/clarifcation for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, mikeg1005 said: They can do it every 2 years per the bylaws... and usually do. That is just for personal competition equipment. And not necessarily limited to 2 years . See 16.2 ii. Other rules are fair game anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: Before the end of the summer it’ll likely be outdated. They do intend to continually insert clarifications and DNROI interpretations into the rulebook. That’s been made clear, and it’s why I won’t consider printing one. We score on Amazon’s FIRE tablets. Too bad we got rid of all the nooks last year. They’d be ideal to have around as rulebook-dedicated devices now. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can simply remove one page and replace it with another . Plan "B" is make a notation directing me to the new wording. Plan "C" is to visit the print shop and spend another $11.50. Any of the options will not give me too much angst. Edited January 11, 2019 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I really wish they would publish an update schedule for the rules book. Continuously is stupid, monthly and even quarterly is too often. Semi-annually for an official rule book update seems reasonable. It will let the official rulings have time to be digested and discussed and get enough feedback on the current set to make adjustments (like to non-existent wall supports and standing definition). We can't be expected to know the rules when they change too often and not having official rulings in a singular and specific location hurts everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matir Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, broadside72 said: I really wish they would publish an update schedule for the rules book. Continuously is stupid, monthly and even quarterly is too often. Semi-annually for an official rule book update seems reasonable. It will let the official rulings have time to be digested and discussed and get enough feedback on the current set to make adjustments (like to non-existent wall supports and standing definition). We can't be expected to know the rules when they change too often and not having official rulings in a singular and specific location hurts everyone. At the very least, there should be a changelog like is done in software: a list of dates and a one-line summary of each change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Apparently you can get a glossy subscription of Front Sight for $15/ year. A plain crappy rule book would cost far less. I guess it’s too easy just to post it online and provide dynamic rules to all of the members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpredictable Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 No need for a paper rule book here. Electronic is fine. I would like to see the app have it formatted correctly with a search function that works and a hyperlinked index. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 12 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: If you include: 1. Troy’s “interpretations” which were emailed out and stuck into back pockets of shooters everywhere (which USPSA has plainly stated they’ll be putting into the rulebook in realtime from now on.) 2. Introducing two new divisions the moment the dust settled after the election - divisions which were not mentioned while campaigning. 3. The total overhaul of Production rules which took an end-run around the two year clause by being labeled a “rules adjustment”... @bret @Patrick Scott @vluc and others who’ve mentioned it? USPSA is changing the rulebook approximately 2 to 4 times a year right now. They have a strong interest in keeping it easy to re-write and distribute. This - beat me to it!! It can be difficult for RM's/MD's/CRO's/RO's to keep up with it as we are tasked with enforcement at the matches, god knows about the folks who shoot but pay no attention to the rules. Calling them adjustments or reinterpretations to justify the catering to the whining masses will cause greater angst and force more to ask what are we getting for our money. I love the game, not the greatest at it and my better days are possibly behind me, but we need some time of stability. Commit to a schedule and for the love of Pete, KEEP IT. But I'd do like Gary does and simply reprint the thing as necessary, grumbling under my breath the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 21 hours ago, Sarge said: So, how much would you all pay for a rulebook if somebody offered them. I would think one could be printed at home and mailed for $5 total no? This, by the way, is why I don't understand the problem people are having. People want the organization to print/bind/make rulebooks for everyone (or create a "low-cost copy", and send them to everyone---even though you could print it on your own for $5, or if you want something slightly more special, head to the local copy center and for less than $10, get a bound edition. ...I mean, if I'm printing one out, I'm going to print it out full-size (because then not only is it easier to read, but it is easier to point out to someone else specific rules). It isn't like it is hard to do, or expensive. Heck, most copy centers will let you show up with a file on a USB drive to print out---you don't even need to have printed out an original copy. As for the "now they can change things all the time anytime" crowd, it is like the bylaws just don't exist for people. Whether they print a copy or not makes no difference to rule changes and interpretations occurring, or their time frame. Personally, I'm planning on using a large personal tablet I've got, when I'm CRO-ing a stage (or being an RM). Easy to read, search, etc---and will always be up to date. When I'm an RM, that's how I'm going to have the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc4you Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 No need for a paper rule book here. Electronic is fine. I would like to see the app have it formatted correctly with a search function that works and a hyperlinked index. This. ^^^^^^Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 10 hours ago, mrpredictable said: I would like to see the app have it formatted correctly with a search function that works and a hyperlinked index. This, although I'd still like the option to print a paper one. It should be easy for the org to partner with a print-on-demand company for people to buy from without costing the org anything at all. Last I looked I could get one printed for $2.69 plus $2.99 shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I think I’m going to try to print one this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I just cleaned some additional political noise out of this thread. 2nd request -- Leave the politics out of this. It won't get the thread closed, but WILL earn someone a time-out if I have to do this again. -Admin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Downloading and maintaining rulebooks on all the soring equipment sounds like a pain. Most range debates require more than one rule book. I like working out a paper rulebook when I am looking back and forth between multiple rules. I like the print on demand option someone suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 If changes are published in a 'changelog' format, it needs to be a whole lot more rigorous than the current 'changelog' which is just somebody's summary of how the rule changed (they think), not the actual changes to the text. Having been in more than one volunteer org where the bylaws mysteriously change based on whoever had control of the server and/or was in charge of entering the changes, USPSA needs to have some sort of publicly-checkable version control on the online rules as well. That is basic software-dev stuff either Rick or Rob can do easily.... but it needs to be mandated and visible to prevent any potential accusations of shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Got a call today from a friend at a match, rule question. Looking it up on your phone through the app is a pain in the ass. Using the computer was a little better, but not going to have my computer on the range. USPSA needs to quit being so cheap and print out copies for its members, there is no reason not to do it, if uspsa has money to send people to the Philippines, they have money to print rule books for the membership that they work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 If changes are published in a 'changelog' format, it needs to be a whole lot more rigorous than the current 'changelog' which is just somebody's summary of how the rule changed (they think), not the actual changes to the text. Having been in more than one volunteer org where the bylaws mysteriously change based on whoever had control of the server and/or was in charge of entering the changes, USPSA needs to have some sort of publicly-checkable version control on the online rules as well. That is basic software-dev stuff either Rick or Rob can do easily.... but it needs to be mandated and visible to prevent any potential accusations of shenanigans. This is why I want to see a schedule of updates and have changes and rulings officially enforced only once they are in the next update scheduled. We don't need an interpretation or change of a rule two days after they publish a new book to be forced upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 My son printed me one in 3 minutes today. LOL Same size as old book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 I just noticed that the drawings in Appendix E3 changed even though its not mentioned in the 'changelog'... Probably just an oversight but this is an example why any rulebook changes need to be controlled and machine-logged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 On 1/2/2019 at 11:43 AM, TaterHead said: Simple question. NO. Simple answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygunner77 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, bret said: Got a call today from a friend at a match, rule question. Looking it up on your phone through the app is a pain in the ass. Using the computer was a little better, but not going to have my computer on the range. USPSA needs to quit being so cheap and print out copies for its members, there is no reason not to do it, if uspsa has money to send people to the Philippines, they have money to print rule books for the membership that they work for. Don't look at the rules through the app, download the actual pdf file to your phone and open it using the adobe reader, way easier and convenient, especially looking up rule numbers and keywords vs flipping through pages and pages. Edited January 13, 2019 by happygunner77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laz2011 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Yes I would prefer a printed rule book . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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