2019 Rules are released...

[IVC]

4 hours ago, N3WWN said:

 

How about the situation where there is a swinger that is the only target intended to be shot through a port/door and opening the port/door activates the swinger... BUT the swinger is visible prior to activation from elsewhere in the CoF (intentional or not - that's not the debate), so the shooter decides not to use the port and therefore the swinger is not activated?

 

2.1.8.5 ("Appearing scoring targets should be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation. If the entire target is not obscured, it may be shot at any time during the course of fire, whether activated or not.") allows the behavior above, but then 9.9.3 ("Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire.") directly contradicts 2.1.8.5 and states that you will always get FTSA and miss penalties if a moving target is not activated during the CoF.

 

2.1.8.5.1 permits Level 1 matches to force 9.9.3 if stated in the WSB, but what if the WSB does not specify that activation is necessary?

 

There are two separate issues: (1) Shooting before activating, and (2) Activating before the last shot is fired (used to be until the end of COF). 

 

In your example with the port, the shooter would have to activate the swinger before the last shot is fired, or he would incur penalties under 9.9.3. This is regardless of whether it's Level 1 or not and regardless of whether  he shot at the swinger before or after activating it. Also, if he failed to activate, any hit would be treated as a miss and there might be an additional failure to shoot at the target if he didn't send at least one round towards the swinger. This is all in 9.9.3. 

 

What Level 1 match can do in addition to the above is to mandate via the WSB that the swinger must be activated prior to shooting at it. Level 2+ cannot do this - the swinger is just another as-is target. If there is no mention of it in Level 1 WSB, then it is the same as Level 2+ match - fair game when visible. 

 

The rule that addresses this from the course construction angle is 2.1.8.5.1, but the scoring rule is actually 9.9.4. If the WSB (Level 1 only) specified that the swinger should have been activated prior to engaging it, there would be a procedural penalty per shot. Hits on the swinger would normally count as long as the swinger was activated prior to the last shot, otherwise 9.9.3 would apply in addition to 9.9.4 - the score would include misses AND procedurals (subject to the limits on the number of procedurals in 10.2.3). 

Edited January 10, 2019 by IVC

[d_striker]

On 1/2/2019 at 11:28 AM, Southpaw said:

So what new rules are you all finding most interesting? I haven't read everything yet. I like the new definition of facing downrange; makes that easier for ROs to enforce. And looks like no more default start position, I like that too.

 

 

Facing Downrange-Not facing uprange. Any position facing side berms or backstop within 90 degrees of the median intercept of the backstop.  

 

So anything that is not uprange is considered to be downrange?  We can now look anywhere and it is considered facing downrange.

 

 

 

[d_striker]

On 1/2/2019 at 11:28 AM, Southpaw said:

So what new rules are you all finding most interesting? I haven't read everything yet. I like the new definition of facing downrange; makes that easier for ROs to enforce. And looks like no more default start position, I like that too.

 

 

Facing Downrange-Not facing uprange. Any position facing side berms or backstop within 90 degrees of the median intercept of the backstop.  

 

So anything that is not uprange is considered to be downrange?  We can now look anywhere and it is considered facing downrange.

 

 

 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

 

 

Facing Downrange-Not facing uprange. Any position facing side berms or backstop within 90 degrees of the median intercept of the backstop.  

 

So anything that is not uprange is considered to be downrange?  We can now look anywhere and it is considered facing downrange.

 

 

 

[N3WWN]

14 hours ago, IVC said:

 

There are two separate issues: (1) Shooting before activating, and (2) Activating before the last shot is fired (used to be until the end of COF). 

 

In your example with the port, the shooter would have to activate the swinger before the last shot is fired, or he would incur penalties under 9.9.3. This is regardless of whether it's Level 1 or not and regardless of whether  he shot at the swinger before or after activating it. Also, if he failed to activate, any hit would be treated as a miss and there might be an additional failure to shoot at the target if he didn't send at least one round towards the swinger. This is all in 9.9.3. 

 

What Level 1 match can do in addition to the above is to mandate via the WSB that the swinger must be activated prior to shooting at it. Level 2+ cannot do this - the swinger is just another as-is target. If there is no mention of it in Level 1 WSB, then it is the same as Level 2+ match - fair game when visible. 

 

The rule that addresses this from the course construction angle is 2.1.8.5.1, but the scoring rule is actually 9.9.4. If the WSB (Level 1 only) specified that the swinger should have been activated prior to engaging it, there would be a procedural penalty per shot. Hits on the swinger would normally count as long as the swinger was activated prior to the last shot, otherwise 9.9.3 would apply in addition to 9.9.4 - the score would include misses AND procedurals (subject to the limits on the number of procedurals in 10.2.3). 

 

Okay, I see now.  The changes make more sense when explained this way.

 

My primary concern was the example that I gave was a real world example provided by the stage designer on purpose;  you could, if you wanted,  take much further, leaning shots to hit the stationary head of the swinger earlier in the CoF and avoid the run to the port (last position) ... or run up, open the port and shoot at a close swinger in motion.  With the rule changes, that type of option would no longer be available to stage designers.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me!  

[N3WWN]

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

 

 

Facing Downrange-Not facing uprange. Any position facing side berms or backstop within 90 degrees of the median intercept of the backstop.  

 

So anything that is not uprange is considered to be downrange?  We can now look anywhere and it is considered facing downrange.

 

 

 

 

No, not anything that is not uprange.  Uprange has very specific criteria.  If you are facing somewhat uprange, but don't meet one of those criteria, you are not facing uprange, but since you're not within 90 deg of "directly downrange", you're also not facing downrange either.  

 

In the following picture, the left side is uprange and the right side is downrange:

 

 

The green shooter is required to face uprange so he must be squarely positioned and facing down the blue horizontal line.

 

The purple shooter is facing downrange any time he is facing anywhere down the blue shaded area and the shoulders, hips, face and feet do not have to be aligned in any particular way.

 

The WSB could specify "generally uprange" which would be "not downrange"; facing anywhere to the left of the blue vertical line.

 

There is also no longer need to specify "generally downrange" as the new definition of "downrange" is the same as "generally downrange".  WSBs would need to state "directly downrange" to be the opposite of "uprange", though.

 

In summary:

• "uprange" is equivalent to "directly uprange"
• "downrange" is equivalent to "generally downrange"
• "generally uprange" must now be specified if the more restrictive "uprange" is not desired
• "directly downrange" must now be specified if the less restrictive "downrange" is not desired

 

[Sarge]

50 minutes ago, N3WWN said:

 

No, not anything that is not uprange.  Uprange has very specific criteria.  If you are facing somewhat uprange, but don't meet one of those criteria, you are not facing uprange, but since you're not within 90 deg of "directly downrange", you're also not facing downrange either.  

 

In the following picture, the left side is uprange and the right side is downrange:

 

 

The green shooter is required to face uprange so he must be squarely positioned and facing down the blue horizontal line.

 

The purple shooter is facing downrange any time he is facing anywhere down the blue shaded area and the shoulders, hips, face and feet do not have to be aligned in any particular way.

 

The WSB could specify "generally uprange" which would be "not downrange"; facing anywhere to the left of the blue vertical line.

 

There is also no longer need to specify "generally downrange" as the new definition of "downrange" is the same as "generally downrange".  WSBs would need to state "directly downrange" to be the opposite of "uprange", though.

 

In summary:

• "uprange" is equivalent to "directly uprange"
• "downrange" is equivalent to "generally downrange"
• "generally uprange" must now be specified if the more restrictive "uprange" is not desired
• "directly downrange" must now be specified if the less restrictive "downrange" is not desired

 

Damn you have the gift of gab! Your answer missed DK’s point. He has been around awhile and is known to work a few major matches.

 He is correct in terms of anything not uprange is downrange in regards to the 180 line. Not by rule book glossary terms.

 

[N3WWN]

8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Damn you have the gift of gab! Your answer missed DK’s point. He has been around awhile and is known to work a few major matches.

 He is correct in terms of anything not uprange is downrange in regards to the 180 line. Not by rule book glossary terms.

 

 

Thanks!  I think that's the first time I've been told that! 

 

I apologize if my response came off as belittling DK... 

[d_striker]

45 minutes ago, N3WWN said:

 

Thanks!  I think that's the first time I've been told that! 

 

I apologize if my response came off as belittling DK... 

 

No worries.  I should have been more explicit.  Obviously you can't look ANYWHERE as I stated.  For instance, you can't look behind you and still be in compliance.

 

But it appears that you can look directly left or right as long as it's within 90 degrees of the median intercept of the backstop.  Under the previous rules, this was not allowed.  

[IVC]

12 hours ago, N3WWN said:

My primary concern was the example that I gave was a real world example provided by the stage designer on purpose;  you could, if you wanted,  take much further, leaning shots to hit the stationary head of the swinger earlier in the CoF and avoid the run to the port (last position) ... or run up, open the port and shoot at a close swinger in motion.  With the rule changes, that type of option would no longer be available to stage designers.

 

That option wasn't really available in the past either - all moving targets must have been activated to count. 

 

There was one possible workaround, where the person would shoot the COF without activating the swinger, fire the last shot, then before clearing the gun walk to the port and activate the swinger. Without this final activation, 9.9.3 would kick in and any hits on the swinger would be scored as misses. This workaround is now gone, since the time would keep running and the person would have to fire (at least) one more shot after activating the swinger for the activation to count. 

 

From your description it seems as the stage was scored without regard to this "late artificial activation." That would have been incorrect scoring. 

[N3WWN]

9 hours ago, IVC said:

 

That option wasn't really available in the past either - all moving targets must have been activated to count. 

 

There was one possible workaround, where the person would shoot the COF without activating the swinger, fire the last shot, then before clearing the gun walk to the port and activate the swinger. Without this final activation, 9.9.3 would kick in and any hits on the swinger would be scored as misses. This workaround is now gone, since the time would keep running and the person would have to fire (at least) one more shot after activating the swinger for the activation to count. 

 

From your description it seems as the stage was scored without regard to this "late artificial activation." That would have been incorrect scoring. 

 

No, you're totally correct and the scoring was also correct.

 

The WSB reminded us that we were required to activate the swinger during the CoF, but the CoF extends past the last shot.  So we would fire our last shot and then activate the swinger "off the clock" before the "holster" command was given.

[bret]

On 1/2/2019 at 12:51 PM, IVC said:

A quick question on 6.2.5.1

 

Say, a bonafide PCC guy declares "Limited" (a "handgun Division") and then clearly fails to satisfy requirements for the division. Rule 6.2.5.1 states that he will be placed into "Open Division if available" (which almost always is). So, does the PCC guy get to shoot for score in Open division (while the PCC course and shooting rules are still in effect since those are based on "handgun vs. PCC," not on the Division that is used for scoring)?

 

In the old rules, moving shooters to Open was a punitive action - a Production shooter wouldn't be placed in Limited if he reloaded from the front pocket or had an extra round in the magazine. The new rules seem to allow a PCC guy to game it and choose whether to shoot against Open shooters...

Pee see see will shoot for No score if they don't meet the equipment rules.

 

Optics nationals a couple of years ago, a pee see see shooter had a drop mag pouchpouch, instead of the Range Officers telling him Before he shot using illegal equipment, they should have told him not to use it or put a mag in his pocket,  but they made him shoot for No Score.

 

 

[DagoRed]

I installed on my phone and also printed it, with three hole punch and staples. Let me study it easier that way when I'm kicked back relaxing. Only 1/4" thick. Printed front to back. I can see the reasoning of doing offline to make updating it easier. The other side of that coin is that, not everyone is tech savvy, not everyone can see little screens too well, and if a competitor isn't checking all the time and rules are changing there is more risk of messing up.  I think ultimately it'll be a net win. My instructor makes us use the book for the Aaron class so I would have just used the find function on my tablet for everything

 

now i gotta go play with my BOSS setup too

 

red

[shred]

Anyone notice that Appendix E3 changed even though its not mentioned in the changelog?

 

 

[TJS60192]

On 1/2/2019 at 7:48 AM, RJH said:

I do wish they would have an option for a paper copy

 

me too

[Sarge]

I'm hearing there may be some revisions coming down the pipe. I wonder how they will get distributed? I'm hoping they can just change the rule book instead of having a list of changes elsewhere.

[Schutzenmeister]

Yes, there appears to be some minor tweaks in the works.  Knowing a little bit about the process, what I expect is the rules will be updated online (that whole "evergreen" thing) and, I suspect an executive summary or "change log" posted as a separate document to aid folks in navigating the changes will be posted.

[N3WWN]

Any idea if the proposed changes will be made public so we can comment on them before they are final?

 

Some feedback from the membership might help improve the quality of our rulebook.  For instance, HQ could ask if anyone finds issues or vagueness that wasn't initially seen by those who drafted the changes.