Winchester small pistol primer issue

[zombywoof]

Winchesters won't ignite at .014" deep.

[MemphisMechanic]

Just now, zombywoof said:

Winchesters won't ignite at .014" deep.

 

A Winchester primer is fully seated in most brands of 9mm at around .008” below flush. 

 

More than that and you’re just crushing it to no advantage.

 

CCI primers are physically taller than other brands - just stack 100 in the primer tube and the difference is obvious. That means they can be run at about .006” in hammer-sprung double action guns, as long as you aren’t running a spring below medium weight in strength.

 

A primer isn’t fully seated if it’s flush, the way your Glock-shooting buddies taught you. It’s just seated less than totally high; deeply enough a striker gun will light them consistently.

 

I run CCIs .004” below flush through my 1050 and they’re match-grade consistent. The ability swage then to manually dial in a consistent seating depth was the primary reason I upgraded from my 650. 

 

(The tail that sticks out the end of your calipers  when you open them wide? That is intended to measure this kind of thing)

 

 

[zombywoof]

24 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

A Winchester primer is fully seated in most brands of 9mm at around .008” below flush. 

 

More than that and you’re just crushing it to no advantage.

 

CCI primers are physically taller than other brands - just stack 100 in the primer tube and the difference is obvious. That means they can be run at about .006” in hammer-sprung double action guns, as long as you aren’t running a spring below medium weight in strength.

 

A primer isn’t fully seated if it’s flush, the way your Glock-shooting buddies taught you. It’s just seated less than totally high; deeply enough a striker gun will light them consistently.

 

I run CCIs .004” below flush through my 1050 and they’re match-grade consistent. The ability swage then to manually dial in a consistent seating depth was the primary reason I upgraded from my 650. 

 

(The tail that sticks out the end of your calipers  when you open them wide? That is intended to measure this kind of thing)

 

 

Agreed, the picture looks like the primer is crushed.

[mchapman]

I have seen primers set to deep crushing the compound and rendering the primer useless, I have also seen them not fully seated and show a light strike and the second time it is seated and goes bang, but I have seen light strikes on primers and it has fractured the priming compound in the primer, like crushing does and makes it useless. Not saying that was what happened in your case, but it's something that does happen a lot and people call it out as bad primers. Every brand can have some issues, they are not 100% perfect all of the time.

[Service Desk]

5 minutes ago, mchapman said:

I have seen primers set to deep crushing the compound and rendering the primer useless, I have also seen them not fully seated and show a light strike and the second time it is seated and goes bang, but I have seen light strikes on primers and it has fractured the priming compound in the primer, like crushing does and makes it useless. Not saying that was what happened in your case, but it's something that does happen a lot and people call it out as bad primers. Every brand can have some issues, they are not 100% perfect all of the time.

Saved me typing the same reply...thanks mchapman 🖒

[GrumpyOne]

That primer does look very deep...and not crushed. My bet would be no anvil. 

 

When you crush a primer in, it deforms the cup to look much like an over pressure round would after firing. The edges are flat, and the cup is usually pushed (concave). I have a habit of seating my primers very hard, and have crushed quite a few...and they still all went bang. Zoom in on some of these primers. They are all Winchesters.

[Beef15]

There's a Guns and Ammo article in which Winchester indicates 99.9997% reliability. Consider the millions of primers churned out every year and you could certainly get a bad one, or few, the odds are against it, but they are out there. Same article, Black Hills says in their testing misfires usually aren't the primer, but they do reject some before they get loaded.

 

I load Wins almost exclusively in pistol and rifle. I've had some not go bang, usually not seated deep enough and weak firing pin strike, but a couple have been completely dead, never bothered pulling the bullet, decapping, and examining them.

[GregJ]

Have you just started wet tumbling?

 

I had similar issues after starting to wet tumble my brass (not decapped, old primers still in).  My drying process was not sufficient, and there was still enough moisture in the brass that when I loaded them some weeks later, they primers went flat.  Went back to media tumbling.  

[Steve RA]

I've found it best to deprime cases prior to wet tumbling,  if they aren't used immediately the primer walls will stick to the sides of the primer cavity and when deprimed, the end of the primer tears off, leaving the walls behind which then really causes a problem.

[glc]

I bought the Presto digital food dehydrator. Works really well completely drying the cases!

[Dazhi]

On 1/3/2019 at 9:41 AM, GregJ said:

Have you just started wet tumbling?

 

I had similar issues after starting to wet tumble my brass (not decapped, old primers still in).  My drying process was not sufficient, and there was still enough moisture in the brass that when I loaded them some weeks later, they primers went flat.  Went back to media tumbling.  

Been wet tumbling since the beginning.  And always used the Frankford brass dryer too.

[BallisticianX]

On 12/26/2018 at 4:31 PM, Dazhi said:

Not sure if I made it clear first time. Trying this again.

Federals blew up a whole tube on my 650 last year due to one sideway primer feed. Replaced the whole primer assembly per Dillon, and was told never to run Federals on 650.

WSP and SB have been crushed, flattened on my 650 without blowing up. They are safe. I have no fear of WSP. Not Federals.

WSP has worked great for the past 60k or so. The latest batch came from PowderValley. My match ammo is gauged not on hundos but individually. I inspect them each and single one individually. There is no chance a spent primer can end up there because on top of individual visual inspection, I use Mark 7 decapping sensor.

I am 100% sure it's the primer not going bang at this point. I just pulled the bullet, dumpped the powder and hammered the nail into the primer with no bang.

It appears defective WSP has not been observed elsewhere besides my episodes. Maybe just my bad luck. Will try the next two 5k boxes from Cabelas. Hope they work better but I probably will hand prime Federal for match ammo for now.

As othere mentioned That primer is set way to far in the case. But doesnt look crushed either... I suspect no anvil or you have out of spec primer pockets that are too deep. Anything is possible these days I suppose.

 Also Ive loaded close to 750,000  between rifle and handgun in the last 25 years and never had a primer set off in a press from seating. So dont get jaded out of Using Federals from that, something else out of the ordinary contributed to that. I use more federals than anything else and never had a problem...they are my personal favorites.   

[Dazhi]

Just ran across another one in the past 3k rounds of WSP.  

 

No bang with nail + hammer.  Anvil looks good, but maybe priming compound missing some?  Hard to tell. 

 

Definitely a QC issue with WSP. 

 

Just to add - the primer is well below flush because multiple strikers pins have been pounding it, after which a nail and hammer was also used.  It was not this low after the initial strike. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Dazhi

[TANFARM]

I’ve come to the painful conclusion that different brand primers work differently on different presses and brass.

I use CCI small pistol on my 650 and have had great success...and they load perfectly on my new Dillon primer filler.

Do love Federal match primers , but not feasible supply to use as my go to........

[Sarge]

39 minutes ago, TANFARM said:

I’ve come to the painful conclusion that different brand primers work differently on different presses and brass.

I use CCI small pistol on my 650 and have had great success...and they load perfectly on my new Dillon primer filler.

Do love Federal match primers , but not feasible supply to use as my go to........

Yep, if there is one primer that is best in regards to feeding, reliability, etc it is CCI.

[RePete]

I quit using WSP when I was getting 15 - 20 misfires out of 50 rounds.  That was 10 or so years ago.  It cost me a match.

All of my guns, revolvers included with ignite CCI's.  I've had good luck with Federal, and Remington too.

[Jim Watson]

As said, variation in mass production.

I have had no problems with Winchester primers but SASS had many reports of misfires back when Winchester quit plating their primers.

CCI and Federal are OK in my use, too.

My one purchase of Remington 1 1/2 during the Panic was dismal.  Misfires, craters, piercings.  I have one gun that will shoot them without difficulty, so I am using them up in that Springfield for IDPA ESP and USPSA SS. 

 

I have popped two primers in reloading presses.  One Federal in my old CH Autochamp, one brand not known, in my S1050.  Neither gang fired the magazine. 

I recall more reports of gang fired primers in the 650 than in other makes and models.  Can it be that the wheel feed is not safer than the stack and bar arrangement?