Classifier ReShoot Clarification

[RaylanGivens]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I believe you are missing something.

 

shooter Bob enters match and shoots stages, then asks to reshoot the classifier,  do not go to Bob on the tablet and re-score his run, Create a new match entry for Bob and score his second run on the classifier under that entry.  Now at the end of the match there will be 2 shooters named Bob in the results one will have shot all the stages and one will only have shot the second run on the classifier.  The second run for Bob scored in the second entry will not combine with the first entry unless you go in and mark both as walk on's and tell them to combine, do not do that. 

so this is not a mulligan and the last score is not over writing the first, it is a second entry in the match that only shoots 1 stage.

 

The only way Bobs second run will affect match results in any way is if Bobs second run on the classifier is the division win for that stage. 

 

I believe one of us is missing something.

 

Shooter Bob shoots the match...  Shooter Bob shoots the match well but zeros the classifier...  Later on shooter Bob grabs an RO and a match tablet, but probably not the same match tablet, and reshoots the classifier...  Shooter Bob shoots the classifier much better this time.

 

Shooter Leo is in the same division as shooter Bob...  Shooter Leo shoots well and wins the division...

 

However!!!  Shooter Bob's second classifier reshoot has a later timestamp and overwrites his initial zero classifier score...  Now shooter Bob wins the division and the trophy...  That's what I call affecting the match results.

 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

I believe one of us is missing something.

 

Shooter Bob shoots the match...  Shooter Bob shoots the match well but zeros the classifier...  Later on shooter Bob grabs an RO and a match tablet, but probably not the same match tablet, and reshoots the classifier...  Shooter Bob shoots the classifier much better this time.

 

Shooter Leo is in the same division as shooter Bob...  Shooter Leo shoots well and wins the division...

 

However!!!  Shooter Bob's second classifier reshoot has a later timestamp and overwrites his initial zero classifier score...  Now shooter Bob wins the division and the trophy...  That's what I call affecting the match results.

 

Yes that is what would happen if done as described, and that is IMHO the wrong way to go about it. 

 

What should happen is shooter Bob (or more properly, the MD or his delegate) creates a new match entry for shooter Bob and he then shoots the classifier again under this new entry. this eliminated the problem you describe, as now Bob had 1 match entry with all the stages including a zeroed classifier, and a separate entry with only the classifier stage shot. 

 

So now in your 2 shooter match example  you end up with Leo winning, as he should, followed by Bob's original entry, with the zeroed classifier, with Bobs second entry with only the classifier reshoot bringing up the rear. 

 

 

 

[RaylanGivens]

19 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Yes that is what would happen if done as described, and that is IMHO the wrong way to go about it.

 

Agreed, but sometimes things like that happen.

 

Quote

What should happen is shooter Bob (or more properly, the MD or his delegate) creates a new match entry for shooter Bob and he then shoots the classifier again under this new entry. this eliminated the problem you describe, as now Bob had 1 match entry with all the stages including a zeroed classifier, and a separate entry with only the classifier stage shot.

 

PractiScore now keeps two identical shooters separate?

 

I seem to remember PractiScore combining scores for two identical shooters...  Apparently that is no longer the case...  Apparently PractiScore now throws a Globally Unique IDentifier into the mix to keep shooters separate...  Good to know.

 

[rowdyb]

7 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

sometimes things like that happen

Things like that happening is a local, people problem. Not an uspsa, software or practiscore problem.

[euxx]

13 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

PractiScore now keeps two identical shooters separate?

 

Always did. Unless you have walk-ins enabled and "identical" shooters are registered as walk-ins. Walk-ins are disabled by default (since about couple years now).

 

13 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

I seem to remember PractiScore combining scores for two identical shooters...  Apparently that is no longer the case...  Apparently PractiScore now throws a Globally Unique IDentifier into the mix to keep shooters separate...  Good to know.

 

You are remembering walk-ins, not regular shooters. The formers can be registered on multiple tablets without syncing (or even network connection between devices being available). The latter has to be synced between devices to maintain identity.

[RaylanGivens]

14 hours ago, euxx said:

Always did. Unless you have walk-ins enabled and "identical" shooters are registered as walk-ins. Walk-ins are disabled by default (since about couple years now).

 

You are remembering walk-ins, not regular shooters. The formers can be registered on multiple tablets without syncing (or even network connection between devices being available). The latter has to be synced between devices to maintain identity.

 

Ah...  I suspect that's it...  Thanks for the clarifications Mike and Eugene...  I'm not sure our Match Directors will start offering Classifier reshoots again, but it's nice to know that they are legal and that PractiScore is set up to handle them... 

 

Do most matches offer Classifier reshoots?  When we used to offer reshoots, we would have about 5 or 6 reshoots out of a match size of 72 shooters...  Mostly people that missed a reload...  gun malfunction...  no-shoots...  that kind of thing.

 

[rowdyb]

I've never been to a local match that wouldn't let you do it. Pay the money they ask for, ask nicely and do it when it's convenient. Now sometimes I've had to beg a little, promise to tear down to the very end or whatever cajoling was needed. But they did it.

[motosapiens]

On 1/2/2019 at 12:49 PM, RaylanGivens said:

Do most matches offer Classifier reshoots?  When we used to offer reshoots, we would have about 5 or 6 reshoots out of a match size of 72 shooters...  Mostly people that missed a reload...  gun malfunction...  no-shoots...  that kind of thing.

 

 

Of the 5 clubs within 2 hrs of me, I think all will allow the occasional classifier reshoot most of the time. It wouldn't bother me if a club didn't feel like hassling with it however. When in doubt, do like rowdyb suggests, beg a little and offer to do more than your share of teardown.

[RaylanGivens]

Allowed a single classifier reshoot at our last monthly match...  Seven out of 82 shooters chose to reshoot the classifier...  Created an extra Squad after the match and added all the classifier reshoot scores...  Upload to PractiScore.com and USPSA worked exactly as @MikeBurgess said it would...  Thanks!

 

The only provision our MD made was that people should reshoot the classifier while their squad was shooting that stage...  and not if another squad was waiting to shoot the stage.

 

For this match, I just used paper to record the reshoot scores...  RO scored the shooter on paper and initialed it...  This worked, but surely isn't the best solution...  I didn't want to go back to the classifier stage and add shooters to the new squad every time another squad shot the classifier...  and there is no way to add shooters to a new squad ahead of time because you don't know who is going to want to reshoot the classifier ahead of time.

 

How do you all handle this? 

 

We have a special classifier match coming up...  Do you all allow classifier reshoots when there are five different classifiers?

 

[MikeBurgess]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:42 AM, RaylanGivens said:

Allowed a single classifier reshoot at our last monthly match...  Seven out of 82 shooters chose to reshoot the classifier...  Created an extra Squad after the match and added all the classifier reshoot scores...  Upload to PractiScore.com and USPSA worked exactly as @MikeBurgess said it would...  Thanks!

 

The only provision our MD made was that people should reshoot the classifier while their squad was shooting that stage...  and not if another squad was waiting to shoot the stage.

 

For this match, I just used paper to record the reshoot scores...  RO scored the shooter on paper and initialed it...  This worked, but surely isn't the best solution...  I didn't want to go back to the classifier stage and add shooters to the new squad every time another squad shot the classifier...  and there is no way to add shooters to a new squad ahead of time because you don't know who is going to want to reshoot the classifier ahead of time.

 

How do you all handle this? 

 

We have a special classifier match coming up...  Do you all allow classifier reshoots when there are five different classifiers?

 

I think the easiest way is to set the tablet to allow walk-ons then if a shooter wants to reshoot afther they bungle their first run they can hit add a walk on at the bottom of their squad list then add themselves (auto populate makes this super easy) then they can run the shooter and score them on the tablet right away without having to even leave the squad list for the stage.

 

we have tablets dedicated to each stage so this makes for a super clean system as the shooters name only apears twice on one tablet and only after they already shot the classifier under their initial entry so the reshoot is easy to keep segregated. if the tablets travel with the squads then I would probaby set up a separate tablet for the classifier and have them add themselves to that tablet. I would probably on that tablet move myself to a empty squad and have the tablet set to that squad that way when shooters go to reshoot they can add a walk on to that squad and score themselves without fear of them scoring themselves under their original entry.

 

 

[RaylanGivens]

Many good ideas...  Thanks for sharing.

 

I read up on the walk-on info inside PractiScore...  Interesting...  You edit the walk-on ID by changing the parameters that generate it?  ...change divisions or name or phone number or whatever parameters make up the ID?

 

[euxx]

22 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

I read up on the walk-on info inside PractiScore...  Interesting...  You edit the walk-on ID by changing the parameters that generate it?  ...change divisions or name or phone number or whatever parameters make up the ID?

 

Note that walk-in is disabled by default and it was intended for something different. Basically to allow to register a "walk-in" shooter on stage devices without syncing from master (e.g. when connection is not available at stages) and to be able to link scores from multiple devices to the same shooter.

For that reason this feature is not suitable for handling classifier reshoots.

[MikeBurgess]

On 3/10/2019 at 2:10 PM, euxx said:

 

Note that walk-in is disabled by default and it was intended for something different. Basically to allow to register a "walk-in" shooter on stage devices without syncing from master (e.g. when connection is not available at stages) and to be able to link scores from multiple devices to the same shooter.

For that reason this feature is not suitable for handling classifier reshoots.

 

It works good to register a shooter for a second entry on a stage device. This is exactly what a re-shoot is, it is a separate entry in the match, that just happens to be in the same division and only has a score for the classifier. 

 

I think some people are getting themselves lost wanting to make it simple by having an extra tablet synced to the match sitting at the classifier stage for entering re-shoot scores under the original entry and then trying to detach those scores from the regular match scores.  This does not work well, it will separate them on the tablet but when creating the USPSA file on the web it puts them back together. 

 

[euxx]

13 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

It works good to register a shooter for a second entry on a stage device. This is exactly what a re-shoot is, it is a separate entry in the match, that just happens to be in the same division and only has a score for the classifier. 

 

Yes, it can work if you understand an accept limitations and consequences of that:

 

1) it can be only used once per-divison. I assume you have to enter uspsa# for classification, so that is the main identity of the shooter + division

2) this reshoot classifier score can affect match standings (e.g. when classifier reshoot has the highest HF for that division)

 

 

13 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think some people are getting themselves lost wanting to make it simple by having an extra tablet synced to the match sitting at the classifier stage for entering re-shoot scores under the original entry and then trying to detach those scores from the regular match scores.  This does not work well, it will separate them on the tablet but when creating the USPSA file on the web it puts them back together. 

 

Right. It won't be possible to detach scores entered for the same shooter

 

For all of those reason we came up with an approach that should give MD and shooter better control how classifiers are run and then submitted. It is still waiting to be implemented... Here are few notes on the things we have to support:

* allow to reshoot classifier multiple times in same or different division for already registered shooter

* classifier reshoots don't affect match results

* select best classifier run per-division for classification submission (it may or may not be stage run that counts for match results)

* allow to exclude classifier reshoots from submission to classification

* allow to exclude match stage from classifier submission (e.g. when there was no reshoot)

 

Currently you can only do some limited stuff for the #1 and there rest is either not possible or weird (like deleting separate shooter registrations or changing results submitted to PractiScore after submitting to USPSA)

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, euxx said:

 

Yes, it can work if you understand an accept limitations and consequences of that:

 

1) it can be only used once per-divison. I assume you have to enter uspsa# for classification, so that is the main identity of the shooter + division

2) this reshoot classifier score can affect match standings (e.g. when classifier reshoot has the highest HF for that division)

 

 

 

Right. It won't be possible to detach scores entered for the same shooter

 

For all of those reason we came up with an approach that should give MD and shooter better control how classifiers are run and then submitted. It is still waiting to be implemented... Here are few notes on the things we have to support:

* allow to reshoot classifier multiple times in same or different division for already registered shooter

* classifier reshoots don't affect match results

* select best classifier run per-division for classification submission (it may or may not be stage run that counts for match results)

* allow to exclude classifier reshoots from submission to classification

* allow to exclude match stage from classifier submission (e.g. when there was no reshoot)

 

Currently you can only do some limited stuff for the #1 and there rest is either not possible or weird (like deleting separate shooter registrations or changing results submitted to PractiScore after submitting to USPSA)

As it is the limitations are not too bad.

 

It sounds like you guys are once again going over and above coming out with new features to make our lives easier.

Thank you 

 

[euxx]

Not just yet...

[RaylanGivens]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:37 AM, euxx said:

 

Yes, it can work if you understand an accept limitations and consequences of that:

 

1) it can be only used once per-divison. I assume you have to enter uspsa# for classification, so that is the main identity of the shooter + division

2) this reshoot classifier score can affect match standings (e.g. when classifier reshoot has the highest HF for that division)

 

 

 

Right. It won't be possible to detach scores entered for the same shooter

 

For all of those reason we came up with an approach that should give MD and shooter better control how classifiers are run and then submitted. It is still waiting to be implemented... Here are few notes on the things we have to support:

* allow to reshoot classifier multiple times in same or different division for already registered shooter

* classifier reshoots don't affect match results

* select best classifier run per-division for classification submission (it may or may not be stage run that counts for match results)

* allow to exclude classifier reshoots from submission to classification

* allow to exclude match stage from classifier submission (e.g. when there was no reshoot)

 

Currently you can only do some limited stuff for the #1 and there rest is either not possible or weird (like deleting separate shooter registrations or changing results submitted to PractiScore after submitting to USPSA)

 

I'm not sure I understand this correctly.

 

Do you allow shooters to  decide not to submit a classifier score that was shot during a match?  That seems to go against all the principles of the USPSA Classifier system...  Am I missing something?

 

I have had shooters want to do this exact thing and I didn't allow it.

 

[euxx]

12 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

Do you allow shooters to  decide not to submit a classifier score that was shot during a match?  That seems to go against all the principles of the USPSA Classifier system...  Am I missing something?

 

I have had shooters want to do this exact thing and I didn't allow it.

 

I'm implementing what I've told. But MD/RM/RO will be the ones to decide if it is allowed or not.

 

Though there could be some valid reasons for this. For example, really bad run or gun malfunction that one may not want to be included into the recent 8 classifiers.

[RaylanGivens]

12 hours ago, euxx said:

 

I'm implementing what I've told. But MD/RM/RO will be the ones to decide if it is allowed or not.

 

Though there could be some valid reasons for this. For example, really bad run or gun malfunction that one may not want to be included into the recent 8 classifiers.

 

Yeah...  There are tons of reasons that shooters don't want their Classifier scores reported to the USPSA...  It's usually sandbaggers that forget and shoot a good score by accident...  They don't want to get bumped up.

 

[euxx]

19 minutes ago, RaylanGivens said:

...It's usually sandbaggers that forget and shoot a good score by accident...  They don't want to get bumped up.

 

I'm aware

That's why I said MD/RM/RO will be the ones to decide if it is allowed or not