Classifier ReShoot Clarification

[RaylanGivens]

We ran our monthly match with a classifier today...  The issue of reshooting a classifier came up again...  Our policy is not to allow reshoots...  Unless something in the rules would call for a reshoot, we just don't allow them.

 

One shooter objected and said he recently reshot a classifier at another match...  Paid $5 and both scores were uploaded to the USPSA...  just like the old EzWinScore days.

 

I seem to remember a new directive on classifier reshoots from either Mike Foley or Troy, but I can't find it...  Do any of you remember something like this?

 

 

 

 

[RadarTech]

This was in a BOD minutes post...
It was in 2017 IIRC... let me look around....

[RadarTech]

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20170228.pdf

Check this...

[RaylanGivens]

14 hours ago, RadarTech said:

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20170228.pdf

Check this...

 

You have a good memory, thanks!

 

According to those BOD minutes there is a limit of one classifier reshoot in one division per match...  Not zero reshoots as we are currently doing.

 

Part of the reason we do not allow Classifier reshoots is because PractiScore can't add an additional classifier score without affecting the main match scores...  If you add a second shooter with the same name and USPSA number in the same division, PractiScore will use the new classifier score in the overall match...  and that isn't fair...  because one shooter gets to reshoot a stage.

 

[RadarTech]

 
You have a good memory, thanks!
 
According to those BOD minutes there is a limit of one classifier reshoot in one division per match...  Not zero reshoots as we are currently doing.
 
Part of the reason we do not allow Classifier reshoots is because PractiScore can't add an additional classifier score without affecting the main match scores...  If you add a second shooter with the same name and USPSA number in the same division, PractiScore will use the new classifier score in the overall match...  and that isn't fair...  because one shooter gets to reshoot a stage.
 

Well it’s kinda required to keep up with stuff like this as an RM... ;-)

Ken Nelson posted a method on how to handle this on the PractiScore blog..
I don’t have that link handy.... but if you want I’ll find it shortly.

[RaylanGivens]

1 minute ago, RadarTech said:

 

Well it’s kinda required to keep up with stuff like this as an RM...

Ken Nelson posted a method on how to handle this on the PractiScore blog..
I don’t have that link handy.... but if you want I’ll find it shortly.
 

 

 

Thanks!

 

I remember Eugene posting something about using John Doe and John Doe2 for shooter names...  But the problem is that the name verification portion of the USPSA score uploading process would ask "Is John Doe2 A111111 the same as John Doe A111111" when you verify the scores upload...  and then the new classifier score would be mixed in to the current match scores.

 

Back when we allowed classifier reshoots, I was using EzWinScore and it handled classifier reshoots seamlessly...  If Ken has a workaround, I would be interested in reading it.

 

[aandabooks]

My club ran a little 2 classifier match yesterday and we allowed shooters to register for 2 runs in the same division.  Shooters could alternately register for up to 4 divsions with one run each.  The results in practiscore treats each set of 2 classifiers as an entry and ranks them for a match score.  When putting them through to USPSA the classifier system will take the best run and apply it to the classification.

[ChuckS]

2 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

You have a good memory, thanks!

 

According to those BOD minutes there is a limit of one classifier reshoot in one division per match...  Not zero reshoots as we are currently doing.

 

Part of the reason we do not allow Classifier reshoots is because PractiScore can't add an additional classifier score without affecting the main match scores...  If you add a second shooter with the same name and USPSA number in the same division, PractiScore will use the new classifier score in the overall match...  and that isn't fair...  because one shooter gets to reshoot a stage.

 

You can offer a reshoot, but you don't have to!

From: https://uspsa.org/pages/about/classification

 

(emphasis mine  )

 

" According to USPSA board policy, members participating in matches which contain a classifier stage may be allowed to repeat that stage at the convenience of match officials, but this is for classification purposes only. The first score of the classification stage must be used to calculate match standings, but the best single run of the classification stage may be sent in for classification. "

[RaylanGivens]

19 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

You can offer a reshoot, but you don't have to!

From: https://uspsa.org/pages/about/classification

 

(emphasis mine  )

 

" According to USPSA board policy, members participating in matches which contain a classifier stage may be allowed to repeat that stage at the convenience of match officials, but this is for classification purposes only. The first score of the classification stage must be used to calculate match standings, but the best single run of the classification stage may be sent in for classification. "

 

Interesting...  It sure appears that the intent is for people to be able to reshoot a classifier one time.

 

Maybe the plan would be to submit the match with everyone's classifier score as they originally shot them during the match...  Then submit a second match that only contains classifier reshoots?

[Nathanb]

As said you do not need to let anyone reshoot. I don’t. By the time I match ends I’ve been there for close to ten hours and I want to go home. 

[MikeBurgess]

I don't have any problems with reshoots being counted for a shooters main match score in practiscore, the only issue we ever have is if the reshoot run ends up being the division winner for that stage then it affects the match scores by being the new HHF for that stage.

 

Our procedure is to have a shooter that wants to reshoot be added to the tablet as a new shooter, then we score their run under this new registration. Using the same name and division doesn't seem to cause any issues at the end of the match I just see the shooter with all their stages scored and another entry showing only 1 of their stages scored. 

 

If the shooters reshoot is a stage win for the classifier then I post to practiscore do the USPSA upload then Delete the reshoot entry and repost to practiscore so the results are not skewed

 

 

 

[euxx]

20 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

If the shooters reshoot is a stage win for the classifier then I post to practiscore do the USPSA upload then Delete the reshoot entry and repost to practiscore so the results are not skewed

 

Cool! PractiScore gets to get a more proper results than USPSA site

[RaylanGivens]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I don't have any problems with reshoots being counted for a shooters main match score in practiscore, the only issue we ever have is if the reshoot run ends up being the division winner for that stage then it affects the match scores by being the new HHF for that stage.

 

If one shooter reshoots a classifier and his new, better score counts for the match...  How can that be fair to the other shooters?

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by RaylanGivens

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

If one shooter reshoots a classifier and his new, better score counts for the match...  How can that be fair to the other shooters?

 

the re-shoot only counts for the match, for the re-entry with only one stage shot, it does NOT replace their first run that is included in their original entry. Basically when you add a shooter to the match even with the same name and division it is a separate entry in the match, just like if they were a different shooter that just happened to have the same name and division and member number. I think the problem many run into is trying to do it the easy way and allow the reshoot on the original entry, that will mess things up without doing quite a bit more editing to get the correct results posted and uploaded.

 

The only way that separate entry can mess things up is if that entry is the stage winner for a division, then it can affect stage points for all the shooters in that division, luckily that is not the norm, and as I said that would be removed after uploading the classifiers to USPSA.

 

 

[RaylanGivens]

12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the re-shoot only counts for the match, for the re-entry with only one stage shot, it does NOT replace their first run that is included in their original entry. Basically when you add a shooter to the match even with the same name and division it is a separate entry in the match, just like if they were a different shooter that just happened to have the same name and division and member number. I think the problem many run into is trying to do it the easy way and allow the reshoot on the original entry, that will mess things up without doing quite a bit more editing to get the correct results posted and uploaded.

 

I don't think this is the way this works.

 

We have had instances where a shooter will shoot ahead without telling anyone...  Then when his original squad gets to that stage, they DNF him because he is not there...  The DNF overwrites his earlier score due to the time stamp...  His earlier score can be recovered.

 

Eugene...  Can you confirm that PractiScore will let two shooters with identical information have two sets of scores and post correctly to the USPSA?  What about USPSA's validation stage during the upload?

[euxx]

2 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

Eugene...  Can you confirm that PractiScore will let two shooters with identical information have two sets of scores and post correctly to the USPSA?  What about USPSA's validation stage during the upload?

 

Define "correctly". It will be uploaded as entered. Yes you can have more then one shooter with the same info (name, division, uspsa#) and each can have scores. So, more then one run on each stage is possible wether under the same shooter entry or different, but either way it does affect match results even if given competitor haven't shot whole match.

 

But I am not in the loop in regards to USPSA upload, especially when multiple entries involved.

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

I don't think this is the way this works.

 

We have had instances where a shooter will shoot ahead without telling anyone...  Then when his original squad gets to that stage, they DNF him because he is not there...  The DNF overwrites his earlier score due to the time stamp...  His earlier score can be recovered.

 

Eugene...  Can you confirm that PractiScore will let two shooters with identical information have two sets of scores and post correctly to the USPSA?  What about USPSA's validation stage during the upload?

Every shooter entry is separate and every stage entry has a time stamp. The system will use the information with the latest time stamp for any given action. 

 

What you have described is accurate, but is very different than having a shooter make a second match entry and fire the classifier under that entry. 

 

The shooters second entry will appear in the results as a separate shooter who has only shot the classifier stage. 

 

The re-shoot score will appear in the results, for the shooters second entry, a entry that should place very badly in the match as that entry will only have 1 score. The only way this can affect the match scores of the other competitors if the re-entry's stage score is the division high hit factor for the stage. (everyone gets a % of the stage points based on their % of the stage winners HHF) if this happens to be the case I will delete the reshoot from the match after I upload to USPSA so the results everyone looks at on practiscore are correct. I have only had to do this a couple times. 

 

 

[Barcode1337]

I've been considering this myself, as I run the matches at my club. Luckily I have not had anyone ask for a reshoot yet, but I'm sure it will happen at some point. I was thinking the most accurate way to do this would be to make a new Practiscore match with only the classifier in it, then upload the reshoot as its own match, which may only have one person that competed. That seems the best way to not affect the regular match scores. This would work at my club, since we have like a dozen shooters, and we still live in the stone age - we do paper scoresheets during the match, then I go through them and enter them into my tablet at home.

 

This whole thing seems like such a pain, it would be nice if there was an easier method or if the rules simply disallowed it.

[euxx]

Am I the only one find it funny that USPSA HQ doesn't provide clear guidelines on this?

[MikeBurgess]

4 hours ago, euxx said:

Am I the only one find it funny that USPSA HQ doesn't provide clear guidelines on this?

Actually the way things work it would be funny if they did.

[MikeBurgess]

5 hours ago, Barcode1337 said:

I've been considering this myself, as I run the matches at my club. Luckily I have not had anyone ask for a reshoot yet, but I'm sure it will happen at some point. I was thinking the most accurate way to do this would be to make a new Practiscore match with only the classifier in it, then upload the reshoot as its own match, which may only have one person that competed. That seems the best way to not affect the regular match scores. This would work at my club, since we have like a dozen shooters, and we still live in the stone age - we do paper scoresheets during the match, then I go through them and enter them into my tablet at home.

 

This whole thing seems like such a pain, it would be nice if there was an easier method or if the rules simply disallowed it.

I did a classifier match once where we created a second mach for just the classifiers so those that wanted to shoot a second division could do so separate from the main match, I seem to remember there being some issue uploading 2 matches from 1 club with the same date but I'm not 100% on that part.

 

 

 

[RaylanGivens]

On 12/28/2018 at 1:17 PM, euxx said:

Am I the only one find it funny that USPSA HQ doesn't provide clear guidelines on this?

 

I find it funny that USPSA HQ relies on an outside, external company to completely design, manage, and upload scores to the USPSA's proprietary scoring system.

 

Having said that, you do a great job Eugene!  I can't imagine going back to paper scores and EzWinScore again...

 

[RaylanGivens]

On 12/28/2018 at 11:18 AM, MikeBurgess said:

Every shooter entry is separate and every stage entry has a time stamp. The system will use the information with the latest time stamp for any given action.

 

Exactly...  and if the most recent score is the reshoot (which it will always be - hence reshoot) that higher score will be used in the match points for that shooter and will affect his, and others, division results...  It's the same as reshooting a bad stage because you shot a no-shoot the first time through.

 

[euxx]

 
Having said that, you do a great job Eugene!  I can't imagine going back to paper scores and EzWinScore again...
 

I take no credit for any USPSA upload stuff.

Using a 3rd party service for non-primary things (like getting it service for non it organization) to support business is a common practice. Though it is not exactly arrangement USPSA has.

[MikeBurgess]

19 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

Exactly...  and if the most recent score is the reshoot (which it will always be - hence reshoot) that higher score will be used in the match points for that shooter and will affect his, and others, division results...  It's the same as reshooting a bad stage because you shot a no-shoot the first time through.

 

I believe you are missing something.

 

shooter Bob enters match and shoots stages, then asks to reshoot the classifier,  do not go to Bob on the tablet and re-score his run, Create a new match entry for Bob and score his second run on the classifier under that entry.  Now at the end of the match there will be 2 shooters named Bob in the results one will have shot all the stages and one will only have shot the second run on the classifier.  The second run for Bob scored in the second entry will not combine with the first entry unless you go in and mark both as walk on's and tell them to combine, do not do that. 

so this is not a mulligan and the last score is not over writing the first, it is a second entry in the match that only shoots 1 stage.

 

The only way Bobs second run will affect match results in any way is if Bobs second run on the classifier is the division win for that stage.  

 

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by MikeBurgess