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mont1120

Perforation Scoring

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At a match I was falling out of the shooters box, (possibly due to external shifting of some sort of extra body mass), and took my final shot which hit the edge of the scoring target. 

 

The RO called it a miss even though the round broke the perforation edge clearly. His explanation that it was a miss was there was no grease ring appearing on the perf edge where the shot broke it. Where in the rule book does it say a round that breaks the per must also contain a grease marking? There was clearly a grease mark on the target, it just did not appear on the perf edge.

 

Rule 9.5.4 states "Radial tears will not count as score or penalty.", but is it the grease ring that determines that decision? 

 

I argued the rule states only the perf need be broken, there is no rule defining grease markings. Did I look at it wrong? It was just a fun match so no harm done, but I want to be sure I understand the rule fully before the start of next season.

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9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evi- dence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter

A grease ring only counts for enlarged holes...
I have seen perfect hits without a “grease ring”
It’s rare... but it should not have been a miss...
The only reason it could have been a miss would be if it went thru a wall or barrel or other material identified as hard cover.

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One more thing... the perf does not have to be broken...
It only has to be touched...

9.5.2 If the bullet diameter of a hit on a scoring target touches the scoring line between two scoring areas, or the line between the non-scoring border and a scoring area, or if it crosses multiple scoring areas, it will be scored the higher value

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Agree with RadarTech.  There's nothing in the book that requires a "grease ring" (actually a smoke ring) for normal hits.  That was overinterpretation of the rules and not equitable for the competitor.   

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I dont know if it's always been the case, but lately i hear a lot of "it didnt break the line".  When i hear it from the fellow shooters it's almost always coming from a D or C class competitor. Opens a perfect opportunity to refer them to Section 9.5 in general and 9.5.2 and 9.5.3 specifically.  However, when that comes from the ROs who have been doing it for a while... i find it very troubling.  I think this is one of the most fundamental scoring concepts that must be learned from day 1.  If they dont know this one... what else dont they know?

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34 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

I dont know if it's always been the case, but lately i hear a lot of "it didnt break the line".  When i hear it from the fellow shooters it's almost always coming from a D or C class competitor. Opens a perfect opportunity to refer them to Section 9.5 in general and 9.5.2 and 9.5.3 specifically.  However, when that comes from the ROs who have been doing it for a while... i find it very troubling.  I think this is one of the most fundamental scoring concepts that must be learned from day 1.  If they dont know this one... what else dont they know?

AFAIK, "Break the Perf" has been around since I started shooting USPSA. Same for the range non-command "Shooter Ready". And it isn't just new D shooters 😉

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"Break" is incorrect.  "Touch" is correct.

 

Importantly, it's not the "grease ring" that needs to touch, it's the overlay which is the correct diameter.  The "grease ring" is not due to cardboard stretching/shrinking when hit.

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Baffling call, if that's what actually happened.  Was there some hard-cover involved?  Was there a wall that you were leaning around?  

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Or a plastic barrel/barricade partially blocking this target, hence the lean?  If so, the lack of a ring could been an indication of a shoot through, so it would be a miss.  Otherwise, sounds like bogus call. 

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49 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

AFAIK, "Break the Perf" has been around since I started shooting USPSA. Same for the range non-command "Shooter Ready". And it isn't just new D shooters 😉

 

"Used to be" is history.  Knowing history is nice, but reading the book isn't that hard.  Trouble is, laziness is easier 🤗 .

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on both the shooter and RO it seems. Competitors have a responsibility to know the rules of the game or where to find them. It isnt that hard. Also have a rule book in ur bag... Or some kinda electronic version in ur swipe swipe doo dad.
At that point you dont argure you follow the procedure IN THE RULE BOOK... Tell RO u dispute his call, pull target,yadda yadda... And dont takt that "Its a club match" BS...  Yeh Great its a club match which is why we pull it and escalate it here so we dont get bonehead calls at matches like ummm NAtionals ?

 

Edited by Joe4d

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Did the RO use an overlay?  Grease  ring at the perf or not, if they can’t claim it went through hard cover, it’s the bullet diameter as measured by an overlay.

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"on both the shooter and RO it seems. Competitors have a responsibility to know the rules of the game or where to find them. It isnt that hard. Also have a rule book in ur bag... Or some kinda electronic version in ur swipe swipe doo dad."

 

This was just a local indoor match, very informal, and not USPSA. Certainly not a match to slow down the other shooters since it is indoors, in a cold building, with 20 plus shooters. I would have challenged this at a match for sure. I just wanted clarification of the rule I quoted. I was shooting around a barrel, but did not hit it or any obstruction. 

 

 

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"just a local match"
Sorry but that is just a lame excuse, and exactly the kinda excuse that creates RO's  AND competitors that dont know the rules at bigger matches.
Id rather take a few minutes at a local, than have some huge problem at Nationals. 

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47 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Sorry but that is just a lame excuse,

 

Or being practical, depends on circumstances, the rule book even acknowledges a practical exception or two for low level matches.

I shoot with folks who have a lot of experience working and running bigger matches, they have a good feel for when it is necessary to be very strict and when being very strict would cause more harm (aggravation, unwanted delay) than benefit. 

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"Practice matches" is where we should practice getting things right, shooting, and the rules. This was a perfect place for the RO to practice using an overlay and citing the proper rule.

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1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Or being practical, depends on circumstances, the rule book even acknowledges a practical exception or two for low level matches.

 

Pretty sure level I exemptions don’t include not scoring targets correctly . But then again this was just a non sanctioned event  so I guess it doesn’t matter. But around here we tend to stick to the rules even if we just practice

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6 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Pretty sure level I exemptions don’t include not scoring targets correctly .

 

Agreed, "depends on circumstances," was a key point in my statement.

 

I think it was you (may be wrong) that was running the timed moving targets stage at the single stack nationals when my squad came through a few years back. Last squad of the day and targets were overshot and soggy and it was drizzling and it looked like it would soon be blowing and pouring down. So we shot wet targets that could not be scored accurately (besides being shot to heck with a lot of long tears the pasters were falling off) and everybody went along with it under those circumstances. 

 

If it was not you mea culpa, I didn't have a problem with it regardless (and probably picked up a couple free alphas instead of NPM's). 

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2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Agreed, "depends on circumstances," was a key point in my statement.

 

I think it was you (may be wrong) that was running the timed moving targets stage at the single stack nationals when my squad came through a few years back. Last squad of the day and targets were overshot and soggy and it was drizzling and it looked like it would soon be blowing and pouring down. So we shot wet targets that could not be scored accurately (besides being shot to heck with a lot of long tears the pasters were falling off) and everybody went along with it under those circumstances. 

 

If it was not you mea culpa, I didn't have a problem with it regardless (and probably picked up a couple free alphas instead of NPM's). 

I have never worked Nationals, sorry.

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11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I have never worked Nationals, sorry.

 

Wasn't sure about that one. 

 

Edit: Curious; if you had a choice between rushing a stage and maybe getting a couple scoring errors or telling the squad to find hotel rooms & come back tomorrow & shoot their last stage which way would you go? 

 

Edited by IHAVEGAS

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1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Wasn't sure about that one. 

 

Edit: Curious; if you had a choice between rushing a stage and maybe getting a couple scoring errors or telling the squad to find hotel rooms & come back tomorrow & shoot their last stage which way would you go? 

 

Option C.

  Major match like Nationals, Toss the stage. A CRO/RO is not the problem in that scenario. MD/RM should have NEVER let it get to that point.

  Local sanctioned match, still shouldn’t get to to this point. Plenty of time to get it right.

  Practice/outlaw, try to get it corrected. If you can’t, then shoot somewhere else.

 

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19 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Option C.

  Major match like Nationals, Toss the stage. A CRO/RO is not the problem in that scenario. MD/RM should have NEVER let it get to that point.

  Local sanctioned match, still shouldn’t get to to this point. Plenty of time to get it right.

  Practice/outlaw, try to get it corrected. If you can’t, then shoot somewhere else.

 

 

Interesting. I prefer the way they went but would not fret about it either way, throwing out a very interesting stage or rushing to get the days last squad in before the hard blowing rain and lightning is going to suck for some competitors no matter what.  

 

 

Edited by IHAVEGAS

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Interesting. I prefer the way they went but would not fret about it either way, throwing out a very interesting stage or rushing to get the days last squad in before the hard blowing rain and lightning is going to suck for some competitors no matter what.  
 
 

Majors have been shot in up to hurricane conditions, via headlights, and heavy winds.

Lightning is where the line is drawn for many....

For a major — if it was a total shutdown... next day or toss a stage are likely outcomes.

The MD and RM will discuss and make a call...

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The only way I could see that being called a miss, based on description, would be if the bullet first caused a full diameter hit on hardcover or no-shoot, before striking the target.

 

As to the stage question - ~ 15 years ago my squad, and possibly one or two others ran out of daylight on a Saturday afternoon at a Major match - pretty sure it was the Mid-Atlantic Sectional.  We were given the option of returning the next morning to finish the match.  I didn't make it back the next day - electrical gremlins caused the engine in my 1990 Chevy Caprice ex-cop car to stop running.  Oh, that had to make it 2002, because I bought the Tahoe a couple of months later.  Others on my squad, managed to finish the match, while I took a towtruck home....

 

Anyway - if the match is still in progress and scheduled to continue the next day, then asking competitors to return the next day is legit.  Ideally this eventuality is recognized early enough, that you can prioritize getting non-locals with travel concerns through the match first.  But really that situation shouldn't occur....

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