Mbx lightweight barrel

[TNREDNECK]

Good news Adrian is sending my barrel back , of course he is saying that it’s my JP GMR15 that’s got a problem , and because he wants to help me figure out what’s wrong with my gun-he’s willing to pay for me to send it to him so he can make my gun shoot groups like he has pics of. I must not be to smart how do you fix something that’s not broke. And the other 2 guys that were unfortunate to get bad barrels. Don’t know how to shoot or install barrels. Lesson learned . I do hope the  barrel shoots good groups now after they repaired it so I can sell it and move on . Buyer Beware!!!

 

i wonder what they will do if more people come forward with problem barrels?

[blckout]

26 minutes ago, BurdDawg69 said:

Having been closed for the Christmas holiday, we have returned to customers complaining about our lack of response time.

 

We at MBX have made an open invitation willing to pay shipping both ways to ship us their rifles, to test them with their barrel that was shot on our test rifle with the results of less than 1inch groups. They have declined this offer and have questioned the validity of our results. 

 

In this case we will be return shipping their barrels. 

 

There is an open invitation to come to our test range with their rifles for us to test.

 

We have bent over backwards trying to help resolve the customer concerns to find only scepticism and complete denial of our results. At this time we feel with the non cooperation and test results using their barrels, as well as all our daily sales of barrels and rifle builds that are tested for accuracy, this matter is closed. 

 

 

 

You were closed on the 19th, 20th, and the 21st?  You emailed me on the 19th and I replied almost immediately.   I did not hear a single thing back until after I emailed you guys yesterday.

I don't think anyone has questioned the validity of your results.  We are all just at a loss as to what you guys do different with the barrel install that we have not done.  It is not rocket science.  You have not bent over backwards what so ever to help resolve these issues.  All you have done for me is email me after almost a week delay the first time.  Tell me that other barrels are shooting fine, then finally replying 6 days later to finally give me an address to send my barrel to.

Where have you bent over backwards? 

You want us to ship you our guns so you can install the barrel and test yourself.  Are you prepared to be responsible for our entire guns?  If something happens during testing and a part breaks or our gun is damaged while in your care.  Are you going to be responsible for that or just jerk us around as you have with the barrels.

Please, explain how you have bent over backwards for us 3.  All i can tell is that you have tried to save face and now are trying to make it out as WE are the bad guys.

I can share the limited email conversations that we have had if you would like.    Shitting on us as customers is not how business should be done. 

This matter is far from closed.

[blckout]

I'd like to also mention on the 19th after i sent my reply email at 3:27 PM,  15 minutes after you guys emailed me.  You posted a video on facebook at around 6pm.

[jlo86cj]

I have a feeling this problem has something to do with harmonics. When you have a barrel that thin, there's just to many variables that can affect it. All it takes is a dulling turning insert to change the stresses put into the barrel and consistency across the same design is harder to maintain. Personally, I wouldn't have a 9mm barrel smaller than .625".

[blckout]

7 minutes ago, jlo86cj said:

I have a feeling this problem has something to do with harmonics. When you have a barrel that thin, there's just to many variables that can affect it. All it takes is a dulling turning insert to change the stresses put into the barrel and consistency across the same design is harder to maintain. Personally, I wouldn't have a 9mm barrel smaller than .625".

still makes me wonder how they got the same barrel to group better when they shot it.  When it was shot by the owner, the grouping was 5" or greater.   They shoot it, and magically they are 1" groupings.

 

[MoRivera]

I was afraid this thread would turn into this.

[dmshozer1]

35 minutes ago, jlo86cj said:

I have a feeling this problem has something to do with harmonics. When you have a barrel that thin, there's just to many variables that can affect it. All it takes is a dulling turning insert to change the stresses put into the barrel and consistency across the same design is harder to maintain. Personally, I wouldn't have a 9mm barrel smaller than .625".

Agree!

[MoRivera]

 I mentioned possible barrel whip/harmonics way back in my second response on the first page, but then I seem to be getting good (enough) results off hand, and again MBX's test results are pretty tight.  I wonder if it could be buffer setup as well, in that sometimes PCC shooters tune their buffer/spring setups for less dot movement/rise but with more 'jarring'/impact from a short stroke or the like. Could that affect things before the bullet has left the barrel?

 

My current buffer/spring setup is a Kynshot 5000 (regular carbine) hydraulic buffer, a .308 carbine spring, and a wave spring in the back of the tube with single quarter separator.  I did this specifically to cushion the rearward impact of the bolt travel but then still have enough rearward clearance for the LRBHO (i.e. non short stroke) with my Stern Defense mag well converter.  BCG with weight installed.  

Edited December 26, 2018 by MoRivera

[blckout]

7 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

 I mentioned possible barrel whip/harmonics way back in my second response on the first page, but then I seem to be getting good (enough) results off hand, and again MBX's test results are pretty tight.  I wonder if it could be buffer setup as well, in that sometimes PCC shooters tune their buffer/spring setups for less dot movement/rise but with more 'jarring'/impact from a short stroke or the like. Could that affect things before the bullet has left the barrel?

 

My current buffer/spring setup is a Kynshot 5000 (regular carbine) hydraulic buffer, a .308 carbine spring, and a wave spring in the back of the tube with single quarter separator.  I did this specifically to cushion the rearward impact of the bolt travel but then still have enough rearward clearance for the LRBHO (i.e. non short stroke) with my Stern Defense mag well converter.  BCG with weight installed.  

That is the only thing I am thinking.  I'm running the short stroke system from JP with their enhanced bolt.  Perhaps its ringing the bell too hard and sending rounds flying. 

I am tempted to accept the invite and make a drive up there to see things hands on with them at their test range.

[MoRivera]

Right?  Like maybe the faster/harder the cycle, the more chance of introducing vibration into a pretty thin barrel before the bullet has left?

[HoMiE]

7 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Right?  Like maybe the faster/harder the cycle, the more chance of introducing vibration into a pretty thin barrel before the bullet has left?

The bullet is long gone out of barrel before the buffer system imparts any vibration. For the buffer to create any vibration it would have to hit something. By the time the buffer comes to a stop and bolt goes back forward, the bullet is on its path.

 

what I think is more probably is bullet set back and using mixed brass giving big swings in velocity which affect accuracy. 

[TNREDNECK]

We shot 20 rounds of each in 5 different makes of ammo , with are proven competion load included all had the same results, 2 or 3 fliers in every group. 

[MoRivera]

17 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

The bullet is long gone out of barrel before the buffer system imparts any vibration. For the buffer to create any vibration it would have to hit something. By the time the buffer comes to a stop and bolt goes back forward, the bullet is on its path.

 

what I think is more probably is bullet set back and using mixed brass giving big swings in velocity which affect accuracy. 

That would make sense, as you have to figure the bullet is moving much faster than the BCG and buffer.....otherwise it would probably blow out the tube, right?

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by MoRivera

[HoMiE]

10 minutes ago, TNREDNECK said:

We shot 20 rounds of each in 5 different makes of ammo , with are proven competion load included all had the same results, 2 or 3 fliers in every group. 

What are you using for optic?

[blckout]

Just now, HoMiE said:

What are you using for optic?

I too shot multiple boxes of factory ammo.  Same result.

I was using a holosun 510c

[Jmyers89]

So I put together the build for blckout. This was not my first AR build by any stretch and not my first PCC. I noted when assembling it that the barrel extension felt kind of undersized. I haven't mic'ed the barrel or the receiver to know for sure, but when I was building it I noted that. I also torqued the barrel nut to about 40ft/lbs which is pretty normal for a non-indexing barrel nut. I won't 100% rule out that I made some mistake, but I feel pretty confident in saying that I probably didn't f'up that part of it.

 

I have read the correspondence sent by shooters connection, as well as what has gone between MBX. And for 3 different shooters, to buy the SAME barrel from the SAME vendor at roughly the SAME period of time and to have the SAME issue, I find it a little unlikely that those 3 shooters made the SAME massive mistake in assembly. It looks walks and quacks like it's an issue with the barrel. Here is my issue with what MBX has offered to do, and it's really a simple fix had they been up front with it to begin with. They took the barrels back for 2 shooters and tested them, great. But when they got results that differed from what the shooters got, they have thus far that I have seen NOT offered what their setup is, just essentially accused their customers of being dumbasses. If they contend that this was some assembly issue by the purchasers, then please share with us what exactly your setup is, what your torque values are and other pertinent details so we can eliminate some variables. There is a big difference between creating a scenario where your barrel shoots under controlled conditions, and what it does in the real world on somebody's gun.

 

For shiggles though, let's say all 3 folks just assembled them wrong or can't shoot. If your barrel is that great, what is the harm in saying "we're sorry you're having an issue, why don't we just swap this out for you and we'll see what's wrong with it". Or better yet, ask some questions of your customer about their setup and try and troubleshoot the issue. The first reaction was "nothing wrong with the barrel, they test fine". You could have tested the barrel, decided it was fine and sold it again and nobody would have known different, and you wouldn't have egg on your face from essentially telling your customers they are idiots and they are wrong. What sets companies apart is not how they handle the easy transactions, it's how they handle the adversity. Anybody can look good as long as they ship on time and generally provide what you pay for. It's when things don't go right that you really see a company's true colors.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Jmyers89

[HoMiE]

I wonder how much of it can be due to bullets right around the transonic speed going from supersonic to sub sonic. I noticed my groups went to crap when I started seeing how low in power factor I could get my gun to run. Depending on your location and elevation the transonic range is going to be somewhere in most typical practical range and could explain those flyers. I’m going to be doing some 100 yd testing to see how much this affects accuracy soon. 

[Mac-pcc]

58 minutes ago, Jmyers89 said:

So I put together the build for blckout. This was not my first AR build by any stretch and not my first PCC. I noted when assembling it that the barrel extension felt kind of undersized. I haven't mic'ed the barrel or the receiver to know for sure, but when I was building it I noted that. I also torqued the barrel nut to about 40ft/lbs which is pretty normal for a non-indexing barrel nut. I won't 100% rule out that I made some mistake, but I feel pretty confident in saying that I probably didn't f'up that part of it.

 

I have read the correspondence sent by shooters connection, as well as what has gone between MBX. And for 3 different shooters, to buy the SAME barrel from the SAME vendor at roughly the SAME period of time and to have the SAME issue, I find it a little unlikely that those 3 shooters made the SAME massive mistake in assembly. It looks walks and quacks like it's an issue with the barrel. Here is my issue with what MBX has offered to do, and it's really a simple fix had they been up front with it to begin with. They took the barrels back for 2 shooters and tested them, great. But when they got results that differed from what the shooters got, they have thus far that I have seen NOT offered what their setup is, just essentially accused their customers of being dumbasses. If they contend that this was some assembly issue by the purchasers, then please share with us what exactly your setup is, what your torque values are and other pertinent details so we can eliminate some variables. There is a big difference between creating a scenario where your barrel shoots under controlled conditions, and what it does in the real world on somebody's gun.

 

For shiggles though, let's say all 3 folks just assembled them wrong or can't shoot. If your barrel is that great, what is the harm in saying "we're sorry you're having an issue, why don't we just swap this out for you and we'll see what's wrong with it". Or better yet, ask some questions of your customer about their setup and try and troubleshoot the issue. The first reaction was "nothing wrong with the barrel, they test fine". You could have tested the barrel, decided it was fine and sold it again and nobody would have known different, and you wouldn't have egg on your face from essentially telling your customers they are idiots and they are wrong. What sets companies apart is not how they handle the easy transactions, it's how they handle the adversity. Anybody can look good as long as they ship on time and generally provide what you pay for. It's when things don't go right that you really see a company's true colors.

+1

[Acer2428]

Wait, playing devil's advocate here, but...

 

Didn't they offer to have you ship your rifle, on their dime, and make it work right and/or figure out the issue? I guess I don't see how that's not stand-up. 

 

In any case, could it have been a defect they fixed lickity-split on the lathe and then posted these results? Maybe, but it seems like a hell of a lot of work to not just say "whoops, we found xyz wrong and fixed it. Here's an MBX coozy for your trouble."

 

Quote

You could have tested the barrel, decided it was fine and sold it again and nobody would have known different, and you wouldn't have egg on your face 

 

Uhh... I would be super pissed if I paid top dollar for a barrel and found out it was a previously sold and rejected barrel. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Acer2428

[Mac-pcc]

17 minutes ago, Acer2428 said:

Wait, playing devil's advocate here, but...

 

Didn't they offer to have you ship your rifle, on their dime, and make it work right and/or figure out the issue? I guess I don't see how that's not stand-up. 

 

In any case, could it have been a defect they fixed lickity-split on the lathe and then posted these results? Maybe, but it seems like a hell of a lot of work to not just say "whoops, we found xyz wrong and fixed it. Here's an MBX coozy for your trouble."

 

 

Uhh... I would be super pissed if I paid top dollar for a barrel and found out it was a previously sold and rejected barrel. 

 I see what you are saying but two of the guys had another barrel in the guns already that shot great. When the MBX barrel was installed they shot 6" groups. Installed the old barrel back in and returned to shooting great. How could that possibly be a issue with the gun? If you replace one part and it doesn't shoot the same then you remove said part reinstall old and it goes back to shoot well again I don't see what good it would do to send them a rifle that works perfectly. If it was one rifle I would agree 100% with you. It would be the same as if you changed optics and the gun didn't group and when you changed back it did. Would you send your rifle to eotech if they tested the optic and said there was nothing wrong with it and then said it must be your rifle send it to us so we can check it ?

( I used eotech as an example insert you optic of choice)

Edited December 26, 2018 by Mac-pcc

[BurdDawg69]

blckout, you are more than welcome to come to our shop So we can put this to rest. Please give us 48 hours notice so that we can be sure that myself or Adrian are here. 

 

Our test rifle is just a standard MBX rifle,POF flat trigger, MBX Buffer system .055 spring, old cutaway handguard, with old 3gun scope with quick detach, that we use for demos/testing. Our rifle is the same as we have shipped to hundreds of other customers. 

 

Before we ship their barrels back, we decised to shoot 2 new videos today showing from start to finish shooting a target at 26 yards, these are in response to these allegations of fudged results with Bullet56A and TNREDNECK barrels. Their barrels have not been modified in any way shape or form from the way we received them back. 

 

It would have been easier to have found something wrong with our barrels than to go through this rush to judgement and hassle on this forum. All we have done was install the barrel in an upper and shoot it. If that is fudging the results, then I guess we will not be able to please anyone.

 

I will post links to the videos on YouTube once they are uploaded. At that point we feel if this is not acceptable to anyone, then it is no longer worth our time trying to rationally resolve the false allegations. 

 

 

[BurdDawg69]

[TNREDNECK]

Well from my point of view ,after removing the MBX barrel we reinstalled the JP barrel its lights out again so why would I ship my 2k gun anywhere . It’s clear the barrel is the problem, and the other guy who sent his in exact same results . Gun shoots great.

Since MBX won’t tell what there set up was ,there torque setting ,there rest ,there receiver or what loads work the best it seems clear they just want to impugn the abilities of the guys that were unfortunate to get the bad barrels . It’s also laughable Adrian says he can’t give me a refund because I didn’t buy the barrel from him, Shooter Connection says no refund it’s manufacture issue, then followed it up with the barrel has been installed, it’s been shoot and it’s been altered . In this case dura coated , and Adrian said it didn’t affect the barrel.

So how would you know if had a bad barrel ?

my post was done before they gave there data

Edited December 26, 2018 by TNREDNECK

[TNREDNECK]

Since they are selling the barrels to anyone , why wouldn’t you use a mil spec receiver they are testing the barrels in there gun basically and they should be testing with other manufacturers!!!

[HoMiE]

Didn’t you mention the barrel extension seemed a little smaller? Couldn’t that cause minimal movement say when the bolt closes on end of barrel?