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mikeperunjr

USPSA 1911 legality Question

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I has thinking about trying SS and the only 1911 i presently have is a commander size (4in) Kimber Covert II which has a red crimson trace Laser built in from the factory the laser has an on off - if i leave it off is it legal to compete with?

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9 hours ago, teros135 said:

Nope.  If it has an optic (on or off) it goes to Open.  

CT laser is not an optic it is a grip sighting device.I believe.  Could be wrong that has happen before LOL!

To my knowledge if the grip laser is turned off, then it is just a set of grips.

In turn with it off it is legal

 

If it is an optic then tegos135 is correct.

Edited by jcc7x7

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Its going to be considered a optic.  The gun would be ok with different grips.  You Might be ok if your removed the batteries along the lines of a flashlight with lead is ok for limited but with batteries its now a open gun

Edited by rustychev

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Here are the applicable rules:

 

5.1.3 Sights – Types of sights identified by USPSA are:

 

5.1.3.1 “Open sights” - aiming devices fitted to a handgun which do not
use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.

 

5.1.3.2 “Optical/electronic sights” - aiming devices fitted to a handgun
which use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.

 

5.1.3.3 The Range Master is the final authority in respect of the
classification of any sights used in an USPSA match and/or
their compliance with these rules, including the Divisions in
Appendix D.

 

The laser clearly falls under 5.1.3.2. But, 5.1.3.3 gives final say to the RM. If you just want to try single stack, talk to the RM and ask if it is OK if you use the grips with the laser off (remove the battery?). Mention rule 5.1.3.3. The gun still has to fit in the box and make weight though. 😉

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I would recommend getting a different set of grips and swapping them out for competitions.  Having said that, until you are able to get new grips and if it's a Level 1 match, get permission from the Match Director to run them turned off or with the batteries removed, then it will be a no harm, no foul situation... especially if you're not winning the division, LOL.  Years ago I had a similar situation where I wanted to try shooting my rifle in an iron sight division but it had a dot co-witnessed, and I didn't want to take off the optic because it would have required me to re-zero it after the match.  I discussed it with the director and he said I could shoot it as-is in irons if I removed the batteries in his presence prior to the start of the match.  In the end I didn't take him up on the offer, but it's possible... at a Level 1.  

Edited by jkrispies

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Wow, you guys all millenials at heart or something?:eatdrink:    A laser uses electronic circuitry AND lenses technically. So it clearly falls under optical / electronc sights. I would agree since all the laser does is project a beam that it could be deactivated and be considered legal. But if at any time I saw a dot on a target it would be immediate bump. BUT I think that should be true for any level of match. I find it fascinating how quickly we as a sport default to, "in a local match this or that should be OK". 

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13 hours ago, mikeperunjr said:

I has thinking about trying SS and the only 1911 i presently have is a commander size (4in) Kimber Covert II which has a red crimson trace Laser built in from the factory the laser has an on off - if i leave it off is it legal to compete with?

 

If you leave it turned off to try a division out as a newer shooter I can’t imagine anyone in the world having a problem with it. Just while you’re getting started.

 

After a match or two we’ll expect to see you arrive with a differenr set of grips or a different gun though. ;) 

 

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46 minutes ago, Sarge said:

BUT I think that should be true for any level of match. I find it fascinating how quickly we as a sport default to, "in a local match this or that should be OK". 

I'm not saying that the rules should be completely ignored at a Level 1, but a blind eye can more understandably be turned at the local level with a new shooter in their first match until they can get their equipment in line.  And, let's face it, when they're so new that they don't have or even know if they have the correct equipment, they aren't going to be beating anybody that month due to an equipment advantage or for any other reason.  Let's get 'em in the game so they stay.  Worst case scenario, let them shoot without score.  At a Level 2+, then definitely the rules are enforced 100%.  

Edited by jkrispies

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Special rules for newcomers?

 

Why don't we want to apply the rules at Level I?  How is anybody going to learn?  

 

Edited by teros135

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Just now, mikeperunjr said:

Problem Solved I just Bought a 2011...Thanks for all the feed back I appreciate it

:goof::goof:

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1 hour ago, teros135 said:

Special rules for newcomers?

 

Why don't we want to apply the rules at Level I?  How is anybody going to learn?  

 

This topic has been beat to death in a hundred threads.  If you send a first timer  home on a minor technical issue then he’s ONLY going to kearn that USPSA doesn't want him and never come back.  Let him shoot for fun, and he’ll come in last place and learn that it’s okay to return next month with the proper equipment.  Others are welcome to pitch in with thier opinions but I’m done. 

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19 minutes ago, mikeperunjr said:

Problem Solved I just Bought a 2011...Thanks for all the feed back I appreciate it

Awesome!

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57 minutes ago, mikeperunjr said:

Problem Solved I just Bought a 2011...Thanks for all the feed back I appreciate it

Are you gonna add a laser? :devil:

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1 hour ago, jkrispies said:

This topic has been beat to death in a hundred threads.  If you send a first timer  home on a minor technical issue then he’s ONLY going to kearn that USPSA doesn't want him and never come back.  Let him shoot for fun, and he’ll come in last place and learn that it’s okay to return next month with the proper equipment.  Others are welcome to pitch in with thier opinions but I’m done. 

 

This is interesting, from a guy who recommends that newcomers start in Steel Challenge and progress to USPSA after a year of getting their feet wet!  Which isn't a bad idea, considering the complexities of "runnin' and gunnin'". 

 

It's also an old form of winning an argument by overstating the other person's position and making fun of it.  Nobody said to "send a first timer home for a minor technical issue".  The OP was smart, asked first, found out what the rule is, and can adjust as needed.  If someone turns up with an optical device on their 1911, there's a Division they can shoot in (and, after all, the argument goes "he'll come in last place" anyway, or "he won't win the Winnebago", or whatever). 

 

I know of several high-quality clubs where people start USPSA with Level-II stages and application of all the rules, and they grow right into themselves and the sport without undue psychological harm.  There's an ongoing thread about "how come we can't get people involved in USPSA", and it seems that about half the folks who come once don't come back anyway, and the ones who want to get familiar with the rule book (eventually 🤣 ), adjust their gear, and rock and roll with the rest of us.  

 

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If someone shows up with  laser grips at a local just let them shoot and explain the rules. I know a few people who like to shoot with what they carry and just don’t use the laser during the match. 

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31 minutes ago, mikeperunjr said:

 Nope but I now have a Kimber Im going sell which has one on it LOL

 

 

Don’t sell it here. Everyone here knows better than to buy a Kimber

 

That’s actually not brand hate, just the fact that you don’t get enough gun for their price point. Kimbers sit for a while in the classifieds section while SA ROs and DW PM9s get snapped up. ;) 

 

It’ll sell easily enough on your local community’s  gun form though.

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8 minutes ago, teros135 said:

It's also an old form of winning an argument by overstating the other person's position and making fun of it.  Nobody said to "send a first timer home for a minor technical issue".  The OP was smart, asked first, found out what the rule is, and can adjust as needed.  If someone turns up with an optical device on their 1911, there's a Division they can shoot in (and, after all, the argument goes "he'll come in last place" anyway, or "he won't win the Winnebago", or whatever) 

I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement—and I certainly wasn’t making fun of it—and had a knee jerk reaction due to my having this exact discussion way too many times with other competitors who would drop the hammer on a shooter like this and then say “oh, well, he didn’t want it enough” when he never came back.  I see your point about putting him in Open to come in last place there as easily as last place in Single Stack.  It’s a smart choice that follows the rules, and ultimately this theoretical shooter probably wouldn’t care.  Having said that, I frankly think it’s a punitive solution when it’s so easily solved by keeping the laser non-operational (no harm, no foul) and getting an okay by the Range Master (also justified by the rules per 5.1.3.3 as quoted above) and having him compete in the division he intended.  If he shows up next month after getting warned and instructed on how to fix the problem as well as where to find the rulebook then by all means, he’s an open shooter.  Anyway, now that my apology is over, I’m actually done and willing to let someone else have the last word.  

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Well, that seems a reasonable solution.  We don't want anyone going home unhappy, when there's so much fun to be had 😀 .

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I am still a relative newbie even though I have been shooting a couple years off and on.

I don't see a problem with a first time shooter being put in open if he has the won't equipment.

If a shooter shows up with a 1911 to try single stack but has a laser but wants to see where he would have ended up in SS he can simply use practice score after the match to play and adjust to see how different variables would impact things.

I shoot production and limited and occasionally C/O. All with different FNS Longslides. I will adjust my class after the match to see how I would have done on the other classes.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

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On 12/15/2018 at 11:36 AM, teros135 said:

Special rules for newcomers?

 

Why don't we want to apply the rules at Level I?  How is anybody going to learn?  

 

I get the consistency aspect of what you’re saying, but like mentioned above, they’re not going to win anyway, and working with a guy that’s brand new/doing what you can to help them their first time will likely help their decision to come back.  No one is ever *ready* for their first match. It’s always show up with what you have and someone will usually help you out. At least that’s how the two clubs I shoot at are. 

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On 12/15/2018 at 11:01 AM, mikeperunjr said:

Problem Solved I just Bought a 2011...Thanks for all the feed back I appreciate it

 

 

Lol, so much for your free weekends.

 

You Might want to find a good used progressive press and a 5 gallon bucket of brass.

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