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Tell me why this is stupid


obsessiveshooter

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Tell me why not: An open pistol made from a suppressor ready p09 or sp01. Screw on a comp, add a magwell, attach an optic mount like this [see attached pic] to the rail, and start shooting 9mm major Open. No one ive seen does this, there must be a reason. The local heat is increasingly in Open and it would be fun to he able to play with those guys. I'm cheap and I have no interest in a 2011 open gun. The ideal would be an open gun set up identical to my TS, but spending that much isnt in the cards.

I'm just toying with the idea. I shoot with the M class guys in Limited, so I'd rather not shoot something that would have serious deficits. That said, some people are convinced certain things (like a glock in limited or production) are handicaps when I dont believe they are at all.

If this isnt dumb, what route would you take and why? I like the idea of the p09 because if its inherent accuracy &just because it would be extra weird, but I've never shot one. Meanwhile I do own a fully cajunized tristar sp01 clone that I shoot well but it feels too small. af795d2bb49a39d2db15420bdc18539c.jpg

 

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Definitely major, I'd be there to compete. In researching mags, I'm seeing people say that *there is no 170mm mag extension for either sp01 or p09
*small frame tanfolio 170mm mags run in a sp01 [possibly also p09?]
*promag 32 rounders can be cut & modified to length and will work in both SP01 & p09

I can't verify either of the last 2, but there doesn't seem to be 170 mag extensions for either pistol, base on my searches thus far.

Kneelingatlas, I bet you could verify the 2nd claim, if you are reading this.

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The P09 and Sp01 take different mags. P09 mags are wider than Sp01 mags. Per Stuart at CZ custom, the SP01 mags might work in the P09, but they may also fall out. I have a P07 and an SP01, and I can verify that the SP01 mag will rattle around in the P07. It doesn't feel like they seat all the way either. P09 and P07 take the same mags, essentially. You can use p09 mags in a Pp7, but not P07 in a P09...not long enough.

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I think the P09 mags are better, but I'm guessing you'd like the feel of 9 major in a steel frame gun. Plus the SA triggers on 75 series appear to be easier.

 

As much as the open P-09 is an interesting concept, I saw this Czech mate for $2100...

 

https://classifieds.practiscore.com/firearms/pistols/cz-czechmate_i1225

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I think the P09 mags are better, but I'm guessing you'd like the feel of 9 major in a steel frame gun. Plus the SA triggers on 75 series appear to be easier.
 
As much as the open P-09 is an interesting concept, I saw this Czech mate for $2100...
 
https://classifieds.practiscore.com/firearms/pistols/cz-czechmate_i1225
I'd love a czechmate, but it would he much easier for me to spend $500 on the base pistol and add parts from there.

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What you are talking about doing is essentially what Carver Custom does to Glocks and M&Ps.  Go ahead.  Do it.  A friend converted his M&P to Open and loves it.  He is also very,very competitive with it.

 

Start with this comp.  https://stores.sjcguns.com/sjc-major-9mm-11-port-aluminum-compensator/  Then add a rail mounted bridge for the dot of your choice.  Then go shoot.  If you cannot arrange to have a legal big stick, don't worry about it.  Two 140s will get you through any stage except at monster matches.  There is always a place to reload without costing time.  I can count on one hand the number of times in the past two seasons I've completed a stage using only one big stick.  The clubs near me only set up five stages plus a classifier, so they tend to keep the round count high.  They also do that to 'mess' with Open shooters.

 

The holster may not be a small hurdle.  You will not be able to use a Kydex holster, so you must find a 'race' holster that works.

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It can be done and it works probably better than one would think, but there are limitations.  Here is my Project Poor Mans open class CZ P-09:

 

nGirtY1.jpg

 

Took an off the rack suppressor ready P-09, got a Springer precision comp, dovetail sight mount with a Burris FF3, Cajun race hammer, and 13lb hammer spring.  Ran it for almost 2 seasons of USPSA shooting major 9 loads and also shot some other types of matches (steel challenge and Action Pistol) with minor 9 loads.  Gun was about $500, comp and mount together about 125, Cajun hammer and spring $95, sight was $200, extra mags $45 each, so a lot of gun and potential for not a lot of money.

 

I just ran the standard 19rd CZ mags and didn't worry about figuring out a "big stick" as Im only shooting local matches and can generally figure out a reload sequence that wont really cost any time.  Maybe at big matches or the occasional odd stage design would matter but I was fine with it, and these mags run 100%.

 

For a holster check out the comp tac international series, one called a P-07 slide.  Its just an open bottomed holster for the P-07 but fits the P-09 perfect so as long as your comp doesn't stick out past the slide or frame you are good to go.  Down side is it makes your draw a bit longer so as to clear the comp but there are no P-09 inserts for any race holsters I could find and I didn't want to go through the time and expense of trying to modify one.

 

The most surprising part of this deal was the Burris FF3 in the dovetail mount.  It never moved, lost zero, or did anything funny even with thousands of 9 major rounds hammering away at it.  My match loads for major and minor would shoot 1.5" at 25yds from a rest and I would often verify zero, but it never changed.  I did have to re-zero when changing loads from major to minor, but once it was set it never changed.  I honestly expected this to be the weak point but it just plain worked.

 

If you reload, and Im sure you will for your 9 major loads, this is touchy with the P-09.  They have very short chambers and from what I saw no way to ream them as the barrels are hardened, so you are only able to load RN bullets.  I just couldn't use JHP's and feel good about how short they would have to be in my 9 major loads to run.  I settled on Xtreme 124gr RN Heavy Plated bullets over VV3N38 or AA7.  They will load as long as you need and the accuracy was extremely good, another pleasant surprise I encountered.  

 

Let me say this, I have never shot a real, purpose built all steel open gun, so I have absolutely no direct comparisons for that.  However,  I don't feel my setup had me at any real significant disadvantage at my level of shooting and at the matches I attend.  I did generally beat all other open shooters and most of the limited guys as well and some of them did run the full on "real" race guns, but these are not top tier national matches either.  

 

I have since switched to shooting CO with a Sig 320 X5 and am really enjoying it.  One gun and one load for every kind of match I shoot is pretty cool for now.  I enjoyed my open gun experiment but if I ever go back to shooting open, and I may, Im gonna do it with a "real" race gun.  Probably a Czechmate if I can find a good deal on a used one.  I think for the weekend fun match this or an open plastic fantastic gun is great but if you want to be serious about it you will probably end up with some kind of metal in your hand at the end of the day.  Good luck with yours if you give it a try, Ive got tons of load data I can share with you if you want it.  Let us know how it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

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Springer Precision makes 140mm basepads https://shop.springerprecision.com/Springer-Precision-CZ75-EZ-140mm-base-pads-Mecgar-17-round-mag-SP0318.htm, not sure if anyone makes 170mm. I haven't seen them. You'll be running a round count deficit either way though since the mags are skinnier.

 

Something to think about: The suppressor ready SP01 is a decocker model which means you're going to have to run it decocked from the start. So the better option might be to get a regular safety SP01 and add a threaded barrel. CGW and CZ Custom both have them for $185 and the regular SP01 MSRP is around $40 lower (not sure how it actually works out at retail), so it's up to you whether you think it's worth a net cost of $150 to not have a heavy DA first shot

 

Another thing I would look into is how well the SP01 will handle 9 Major loads. I've seen people talk about how CZ redesigned the barrel for the Czechmate because the "peanut" was breaking 

 

I would assume a SP01 would run into this same issue. 

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Great info guys, thanks!

I'm kind of amazed that your FF3 lasted riding the slide with 9 major.

If I were to do this, I think the sp01 would be more ideal because of the steel frame.  A DA first shot is a non-starter for me, personally.  I would plan on converting it to SA only.  What I really wish is that I could get or fit a threaded SP01 barrel to my Tristar clone. I'm not sure what would be involved, but my Tristar is all souped up with CGW stuff and I'd rather have it as a project open gun than a production gun.  

I'd like to see if the newer SP01 barrels are rounded at the peanut like the new CM barrels.  

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It can be done and it works probably better than one would think, but there are limitations.  Here is my Project Poor Mans open class CZ P-09:
 
nGirtY1.jpg
 
Took an off the rack suppressor ready P-09, got a Springer precision comp, dovetail sight mount with a Burris FF3, Cajun race hammer, and 13lb hammer spring.  Ran it for almost 2 seasons of USPSA shooting major 9 loads and also shot some other types of matches (steel challenge and Action Pistol) with minor 9 loads.  Gun was about $500, comp and mount together about 125, Cajun hammer and spring $95, sight was $200, extra mags $45 each, so a lot of gun and potential for not a lot of money.
 
I just ran the standard 19rd CZ mags and didn't worry about figuring out a "big stick" as Im only shooting local matches and can generally figure out a reload sequence that wont really cost any time.  Maybe at big matches or the occasional odd stage design would matter but I was fine with it, and these mags run 100%.
 
For a holster check out the comp tac international series, one called a P-07 slide.  Its just an open bottomed holster for the P-07 but fits the P-09 perfect so as long as your comp doesn't stick out past the slide or frame you are good to go.  Down side is it makes your draw a bit longer so as to clear the comp but there are no P-09 inserts for any race holsters I could find and I didn't want to go through the time and expense of trying to modify one.
 
The most surprising part of this deal was the Burris FF3 in the dovetail mount.  It never moved, lost zero, or did anything funny even with thousands of 9 major rounds hammering away at it.  My match loads for major and minor would shoot 1.5" at 25yds from a rest and I would often verify zero, but it never changed.  I did have to re-zero when changing loads from major to minor, but once it was set it never changed.  I honestly expected this to be the weak point but it just plain worked.
 
If you reload, and Im sure you will for your 9 major loads, this is touchy with the P-09.  They have very short chambers and from what I saw no way to ream them as the barrels are hardened, so you are only able to load RN bullets.  I just couldn't use JHP's and feel good about how short they would have to be in my 9 major loads to run.  I settled on Xtreme 124gr RN Heavy Plated bullets over VV3N38 or AA7.  They will load as long as you need and the accuracy was extremely good, another pleasant surprise I encountered.  
 
Let me say this, I have never shot a real, purpose built all steel open gun, so I have absolutely no direct comparisons for that.  However,  I don't feel my setup had me at any real significant disadvantage at my level of shooting and at the matches I attend.  I did generally beat all other open shooters and most of the limited guys as well and some of them did run the full on "real" race guns, but these are not top tier national matches either.  
 
I have since switched to shooting CO with a Sig 320 X5 and am really enjoying it.  One gun and one load for every kind of match I shoot is pretty cool for now.  I enjoyed my open gun experiment but if I ever go back to shooting open, and I may, Im gonna do it with a "real" race gun.  Probably a Czechmate if I can find a good deal on a used one.  I think for the weekend fun match this or an open plastic fantastic gun is great but if you want to be serious about it you will probably end up with some kind of metal in your hand at the end of the day.  Good luck with yours if you give it a try, Ive got tons of load data I can share with you if you want it.  Let us know how it goes.
 
 
 
 
 
Have you ever posted any videos on YouTube that show your pistol's recoil with the 9 major loads? I'm interested to see how effective the comp is.

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Springer Precision makes 140mm basepads https://shop.springerprecision.com/Springer-Precision-CZ75-EZ-140mm-base-pads-Mecgar-17-round-mag-SP0318.htm, not sure if anyone makes 170mm. I haven't seen them. You'll be running a round count deficit either way though since the mags are skinnier.
 
Something to think about: The suppressor ready SP01 is a decocker model which means you're going to have to run it decocked from the start. So the better option might be to get a regular safety SP01 and add a threaded barrel. CGW and CZ Custom both have them for $185 and the regular SP01 MSRP is around $40 lower (not sure how it actually works out at retail), so it's up to you whether you think it's worth a net cost of $150 to not have a heavy DA first shot
 
Another thing I would look into is how well the SP01 will handle 9 Major loads. I've seen people talk about how CZ redesigned the barrel for the Czechmate because the "peanut" was breaking 
 
I would assume a SP01 would run into this same issue. 
After looking, I see that the threaded spo1 barrels I'll have the same squared off section as the Fragile Checkmate barrels had. So, it seems like breakage would be likely. The po9 barrel has a totally different design down there.

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33 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Have you ever posted any videos on YouTube that show your pistol's recoil with the 9 major loads? I'm interested to see how effective the comp is.

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No videos on you tube.  I have recorded myself shooting a few different loads before, but that was on a different phone, not sure if I still have the videos or not, if I do I can send them to you.  Even with the less than ideal comp the gun stayed really flat through recoil.  Not much noticeable difference between shooting 9 major through it and regular rounds through a non comped gun.  Once I got my final spring and load dialed in the dot pretty much stayed in the glass as long as I didn't let up on my grip.  The dot would look like / inside the glass and as long as you see the slash you're in the A zone, blast away.  Hits were there and pretty close to each other.  I always shot lots of A's, just not quite as fast as the top guys, but this was only the 2nd or 3rd year I shot USPSA.  Lots of fun.

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The more research I do, the less I like my idea. There just isn't enough info out there. I love projects and underdog equipment but I also hate bad investments.    I really think I'd need to shoot a czechmate and a p09 open pistol side by side before I invested in a project like this, because if I thought I was missing out on significant performance, I would be selling the p-09 in short order at a significant loss.    I found my TS 40 on sale brand new for $900, it makes so much sense to wait for a deal on one in 9mm and build from there.  Having identical controls would be awesome.     

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17 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I'm kind of amazed that your FF3 lasted riding the slide with 9 major.

 

You shouldn't be.  My oldest FF3 went 40,000 rounds on my 1911 45 shooting 156PF bullseye loads and 172PF major loads.  I have five of them and three are slide mounted.  I shoot a lot and I've never had one fail due to recoil.

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I converted a sp01. Its a great low budget open option.

The only thing I need is a magwell.

Its way more accurate than I thought too. Major PF ammo

1st load test got me a 1.5" group at 27 yards on a 30 degree day rested on a ammo box. Im sure i could get sub 1" on a proper rest and a few degrees warmer.

A buddy of mine shot it freehand at 25yds and was able to put 9 shots in the head A box zone and the 10th was just below. He could not believe it.

Trigger is about 1 1/2lbs and less reset than most custom 2011's

 

 

 

open1.jpg

open3.jpg

open2.jpg

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