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mike NM

AR 9 mm Pistol brace, PPC class? , rules, rules

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6 hours ago, Acer2428 said:

 

Because a braced pistol is.... a braced pistol and it's NOT a pistol caliber carbine? I went through the same thing when I first saw the class and only had two braced pistols in my safe.... but I had an M4 stock in my parts bin and a $70 barrel later I was in business. It's either a pistol or it's a rifle/carbine. The ONLY argument I could see against the current rules is if you had a rifle and you CHOSE to use a Sig Brace AS a stock and were still not able to participate.

 

But asking why you can't use a pistol in a carbine class is like asking why PCC's can't compete in Carry Optics...

 

Merriam-Webster defines "carbine" in two ways: 

1. a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry.

2. a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush.

 

These are just two of at least a half-dozen descriptions of 'carbine''. Problem is, no dictionary (or other source) I've ever found can quantify what length a carbine actually is.

 

Is 'short' 19", or is it 15.9"? Your example of the Sig Brace on a rifle is spot-on. This whole Brace vs. buttstock nonsense is pure semantics. Obtaining a $2, $200, or $2000 'stamp' from the Feds does not change a 10.5" AR pistol into a RIFLE. It's BS! If the modern definition of a rifle is a barrel of 16" or more, then the stamp simply legalizes you to 'shoulder' your pistol. How did the stamp magically change a pistol into a (SB) rifle? We just paid a fee for the right to buy an adjustable length buttstock for our long-barrel pistol!

 

Let's assume for sake of conversation in a fantasy world, that the Feds were completely on-board with common-sense gun laws ;), and as long as the firearm were legally owned they didn't care if it had a 4" barrel or a 16.1" barrel...

 

Wouldn't it make much more sense for Practical Shooting rulebooks to define what we now know as PCC class as being a 'firearm designed/intended to be held/fired with one hand on a grip behind the trigger, and the other hand holding the forestock of the barrel in front of the trigger/ejection port. Barrel must be a min of 8" (pick a number) in length. Shouldering the weapon is optional.'  Like a... wait for it... rifle!

Pistols being defined/intended to be a firearm held/fired with the support hand overlaying or interlocking the strong hand, i.e. both hands in one place behind/below the trigger.' 

 

Holodeck simulation off.

 

You kids get off my lawn!

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On 12/6/2018 at 4:12 PM, mike NM said:

Don't want to get into politics here..... But..... it seems that our friends at BATFE now say a pistol brace isn't a buttstock so a brace can be shouldered/cheeked on a AR pistol , Barrel length is/can be less than 16"...since it's not a rifle but a pistol ....I'd guess the rule maker's at USPSA are in a huddle???... Maybe yet another class?.... Pistol brace open/ pistol brace limited or maybe carry optics brace  , open/limited... What say you????....1st. person that comes up with a AR pistol holster wins.. I never really understood the $200 SBR fee thing anyhow, same as a machine gun ... A 6' tall person could dang near hide a 5' ladder under a trench coat if they really tried....

As Clangclang mentioned. The original post is based on a fallacy. Braces are legal as braces. Shouldering a brace leads to legal problems according to the ATF. Here's the letter: https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download  Please read it carefully and completely.

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On 12/7/2018 at 12:42 PM, Patrick Scott said:

Every time I see a post about making a division for braced pistols, all I hear is 
"I have this gun that doesnt fit the rules. Can we make a division for it? I don't want to buy the proper gear to play the game"
 

Best quote of the week!!!🤣🤣

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PCP 

Pistol Caliber Pistol

 

is what F1 firearms calls theirs

Edited by Fo0

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On 12/10/2018 at 6:09 PM, BentAero said:

 

Merriam-Webster defines "carbine" in two ways: 

1. a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry.

2. a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush.

 

These are just two of at least a half-dozen descriptions of 'carbine''. Problem is, no dictionary (or other source) I've ever found can quantify what length a carbine actually is.

 

Is 'short' 19", or is it 15.9"? Your example of the Sig Brace on a rifle is spot-on. This whole Brace vs. buttstock nonsense is pure semantics. Obtaining a $2, $200, or $2000 'stamp' from the Feds does not change a 10.5" AR pistol into a RIFLE. It's BS! If the modern definition of a rifle is a barrel of 16" or more, then the stamp simply legalizes you to 'shoulder' your pistol. How did the stamp magically change a pistol into a (SB) rifle? We just paid a fee for the right to buy an adjustable length buttstock for our long-barrel pistol!

 

Let's assume for sake of conversation in a fantasy world, that the Feds were completely on-board with common-sense gun laws ;), and as long as the firearm were legally owned they didn't care if it had a 4" barrel or a 16.1" barrel...

 

Wouldn't it make much more sense for Practical Shooting rulebooks to define what we now know as PCC class as being a 'firearm designed/intended to be held/fired with one hand on a grip behind the trigger, and the other hand holding the forestock of the barrel in front of the trigger/ejection port. Barrel must be a min of 8" (pick a number) in length. Shouldering the weapon is optional.'  Like a... wait for it... rifle!

Pistols being defined/intended to be a firearm held/fired with the support hand overlaying or interlocking the strong hand, i.e. both hands in one place behind/below the trigger.' 

 

Holodeck simulation off.

 

You kids get off my lawn!

 

What  length a PCC barrel  has, has nothing to do with the discussion. This is not about  Carbine vs Rifle. It is the definition of a pistol  that is the issue here. The rules are clear, PCC is NOT a division for a Pistol. Its simple really.

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It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse?

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1 hour ago, mwray said:

It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse?

I would like to understand what you are saying.  Granted, it takes a little longer to brief a stage and a little longer to run a stage.  On the flip side, it has brought a few new shooters into the sport.  Can you be specific on what damage it has done to the sport?  A generalized statement, means so little.

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Reminds me of a buddy who always threatens to shoot USPSA. I get a lot of questions, because a short perusal of the actual rules and gear requirements is too brainy.

 

Q: "Hey, can I use a Mossberg Shockwave with brace, extended tube and red dot in Open"?

A: "No. No you can not use shotguns in a pistol match"

Q: "OK, well, then I'll use my Dan Wesson in SS..."

A: "No, because you ported it, installed a comp, and it has a red dot. It's a SA only trigger."

Q: "Ok, maybe I'll stick to the USPSA rifle match, and just use my AR with brace..."

A: "Nope, pistols are not allowed at rifle matches"

Q: "DANG STUPID RULES!! WHY DO THEY MAKE IT SO DIFFICULT?? OKAY, I guess its carry optics then. I'll use my 19".

A: "Unfortunately, you made a "roland special" so you will have to shoot Open Minor....."

 

 

Etc etc etc etc.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mwray said:

It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse?

They see me trollin.............

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5 hours ago, mwray said:

It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse?

Yeah, the guys with the $5,000 open guns hate it when a $600 PCC betters their scores.  😜

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PCC shooters used to shoot at carnivals. They can win all the bunny rabbits. They're sure faster than me.

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