IDPA Revolver Stock vs Enhanced

[ajblack]

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the IDPA forum, but I figured this place is as good as any. I'm interested in hearing from people who have shot both types of revolvers in IDPA since they were merged into one division.  Does the moon clip reload in Enhanced outweigh the power factor benefit of shooting 38 special at 105 pf?  Also, how does the recoil of a 625 compare to a 1911 shooting the same ammo?  I've only ever shot IDPA with the stock revolver equipment but I'm interested in hearing if there's a big advantage to moving over to enhanced.

[pskys2]

For me personally yes I think the moon clips are worth the extra PF.  

Where the semi-auto eats up some energy in recoiling, it also has the mass of the slide impacting you.

To me it's a wash, I never found the recoil of a revolver with same PF loads to be any harder to control than a 1911.  My splits are usually very close, I can shave maybe .02 off using a SA 1911 but doing it and actually seeing the sight, calling the shot wasn't much difference.

But I would try to get closer to the 155 of IDPA rather than  using loads for 165 of USPSA when shooting IDPA.

[PatJones]

I don't shoot IDPA, and the cowboy-action-type power factors seem a bit silly to me. Major power factor loads feel stouter in my 5" 625 than they do in my government model. It doesn't affect my splits, but you do feel it a little at the end of the day.

I've seen some pretty spicy speedloader reloads in ICORE. Are the spring loaded Comp III speedloaders IDPA legal?

I think the disaster factor on the moonclip reload is smaller, and it probably takes less practice to get an ok reload.

[ajblack]

Yes the Comp III's are legal in IDPA, which does make it a lot easier to grab when reloading as compared to something that has a lower profile.  I know what you mean with the disaster factory of speedloaders, I've had some pretty unexplainable things happen to me using them.

[jhgtyre]

12 hours ago, PatJones said:

the cowboy-action-type power factors seem a bit silly to me

The 105 PF for Revo was instituted because factory 38 Special ammo tends to be weak.   For example Winchester White Box 38 Special +P 125gr JHP is advertised as making 945 fps which works out to about 118 pf.  I don't know what length barrel that is shot out of but it doesn't even make ICORE PF.

[Jim Watson]

Yup.

.38 econoball is very soft, to make Minor you would have to buy 158 gr +P.  Or load the equivalent, although with the right bullet and powder, you don't get into +P chamber pressure.  I loaded a bunch of them.  They didn't wear out my Python. 

I know one gunboard poster told of shooting some hundreds of +P in a Model 10 with no signs of excessive wear.

But I also know one guy who wore out two Model 10s with the thousands of +P rounds shot in match and practice by a competitor.

There is also the PPC shooter who wore out a gun with wadcutters, but it took 150,000 of them. 

 

My .38 wadcutters give f 107.  So when I loaded some a smidgen too long for my M52, I shot them for the first cylinder, roundnose on the reload. 

[PatJones]

Yup.
.38 econoball is very soft, to make Minor you would have to buy 158 gr +P.  Or load the equivalent, although with the right bullet and powder, you don't get into +P chamber pressure.  I loaded a bunch of them.  They didn't wear out my Python. 
I know one gunboard poster told of shooting some hundreds of +P in a Model 10 with no signs of excessive wear.
But I also know one guy who wore out two Model 10s with the thousands of +P rounds shot in match and practice by a competitor.
There is also the PPC shooter who wore out a gun with wadcutters, but it took 150,000 of them. 
 
My .38 wadcutters give f 107.  So when I loaded some a smidgen too long for my M52, I shot them for the first cylinder, roundnose on the reload. 

38 +p is still a very low pressure loading. Smiths are modern guns, and built from steel they should last for tens of thousands of rounds. Rugers are nearly indestructible. Colts are obsolete. Parts are no longer available for the Colts and the factory has ceased to service them, they should be shot sparingly.

[Racinready300ex]

On 12/5/2018 at 7:31 PM, ajblack said:

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the IDPA forum, but I figured this place is as good as any. I'm interested in hearing from people who have shot both types of revolvers in IDPA since they were merged into one division.  Does the moon clip reload in Enhanced outweigh the power factor benefit of shooting 38 special at 105 pf?  Also, how does the recoil of a 625 compare to a 1911 shooting the same ammo?  I've only ever shot IDPA with the stock revolver equipment but I'm interested in hearing if there's a big advantage to moving over to enhanced.

 

I haven't shot it since the combined them. But, I shot them both when they were separate divisions. If I were going to do it again, I'd go with the moon clip gun, I think they are worth the extra recoil. I could shoot my 625 just about as fast as my 686, but my reloads with the moon clips were faster and more consistent.

[Alaskan454]

I don't shoot IDPA anymore, but when I did the the moonclip revolver was always faster.  Any perceived advantage in your split times will be overshadowed by the consistency and speed of a moonclip reload.  I shot 230 gr RN at 160 PF and they were very soft shooting.  Also, keep in mind that when you encounter steel targets the 105 PF loads suck.  I'd rather know it's going to fall every time.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Alaskan454

[ajblack]

18 minutes ago, Alaskan454 said:

 Also, keep in mind that when you encounter steel targets the 105 PF loads suck.  I'd rather know it's going to fall every time.

I hear that, I haven't had any issues with steel so far at 110 pf but I could see some improperly calibrated popper being a problem

[pskys2]

18 hours ago, PatJones said:

I don't shoot IDPA, and the cowboy-action-type power factors seem a bit silly to me. Major power factor loads feel stouter in my 5" 625 than they do in my government model. It doesn't affect my splits, but you do feel it a little at the end of the day.

I've seen some pretty spicy speedloader reloads in ICORE. Are the spring loaded Comp III speedloaders IDPA legal?

I think the disaster factor on the moonclip reload is smaller, and it probably takes less practice to get an ok reload.

When practicing I can notice a bit, in a match I just never seem to see or feel the recoil, whether with a semi-auto or revolver.  Maybe it happens too fast for my feeble old mind to process?  But at the end of the day with major USPSA loads in my Revolver, at times my thumb joint noticed it.

But at the last IDPA match, which was about a hundred rounds, with my 325 TR and my old 45 GAP Major PF loads I didn't notice any issues at all.  Nor did I notice the recoil during the match.  Another thing is in IDPA we "shouldn't" be pushing the speed dial quite as hard as in USPSA.  I tried to focus more on smooth than fast, sometimes it even worked!

 

YES Ol' Bubba from Oklahoma was a scorcher!

Seems the trick in reloads between the two is all in the ejection of the cases.

Edited December 7, 2018 by pskys2

[ajblack]

55 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Seems the trick in reloads between the two is all in the ejection of the cases.

It's funny, I've found with the new(ish) 105 pf minimum the cases don't even expand and they drop free without hitting the ejector. It's not something I would count on, but I definitely missed the ejector in matches before and ended up fine

[RePete]

18 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

I don't shoot IDPA anymore, but when I did the the moonclip revolver was always faster.  Any perceived advantage in your split times will be overshadowed by the consistency and speed of a moonclip reload.  I shot 230 gr RN at 160 PF and they were very soft shooting.  Also, keep in mind that when you encounter steel targets the 105 PF loads suck.  I'd rather know it's going to fall every time.

 

18 hours ago, ajblack said:

I hear that, I haven't had any issues with steel so far at 110 pf but I could see some improperly calibrated popper being a problem

 

I have seen it a couple of times with correctly calibrated poppers.  All in all, it's not a problem.

 

IMHO I think that they should have gone to 115PF on the drop, not 105.

 

I still load to 125PF anyway.  I didn't see the need to change.

[IHAVEGAS]

18 hours ago, ajblack said:

I hear that, I haven't had any issues with steel so far at 110 pf but I could see some improperly calibrated popper being a problem

 

I dread the big poppers even at 130 pf.

 

Between the wind varying and calibration changing due to the base moving during the match (not a problem when the ground is dry and hard) and inconsistencies with some of the poppers themselves, sooner or later you are going to get screwed if you are the low pf shooter.

 

Small poppers, few worries if they are set about right.  

[swordfish]

20 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

I don't shoot IDPA anymore, but when I did the the moonclip revolver was always faster.  Any perceived advantage in your split times will be overshadowed by the consistency and speed of a moonclip reload.  I shot 230 gr RN at 160 PF and they were very soft shooting.  Also, keep in mind that when you encounter steel targets the 105 PF loads suck.  I'd rather know it's going to fall every time.

Unless Josh starts shooting IDPA.

[MWP]

It's a wash between the 2 in idpa.

[pskys2]

21 hours ago, ajblack said:

It's funny, I've found with the new(ish) 105 pf minimum the cases don't even expand and they drop free without hitting the ejector. It's not something I would count on, but I definitely missed the ejector in matches before and ended up fine

Never thought of that, but I do worry about powder granules and the mayhem they can cause from low pressure loads at that pf.

[ajblack]

I shoot win 231 primarily for revolver and I do notice some unburnt powder in the crane area, but the cases are clean. I think a lot of that had to do with the solid taper crimp I use.

Edited December 8, 2018 by ajblack

[pskys2]

Clays seemed to have less unburnt powder granules than 231 or Titegroup at low pressures, but the velocity spreads can get pretty wide even for clays.  I've heard some use trail boss for the low pressure loads.

[BHBret]

I use Trail Boss in my 44 Special reloads with a 240 grain lead SWC and it burns clean. Since I’m using speed loaders I could go down to a 105 PF but pretty sure the bullet would get stuck in my barrel so I’m at 183 PF. I used this load in my Ultralight S&W 329PD and had the HKS speed loader dumped cartridges during a reload and couldn’t finish the stage. It’s making me look harder at getting a 625JM and using moon clips. Speedloaders and 44’s are just not very fast and very fumble prone, at least for me.


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[ajblack]

I've used trailboss in the past for 38 special but I find that the higher pressures generated can make extraction a little stiffer than thr loads with different powders. I'm going to test out some new loads using Alliant Sport Pistol in a couple weeks.  I've been using this powder for 9mm for a while now and I've been really impressed. It would be nice to alleviate the unburnt powder issue.

[pskys2]

On 12/9/2018 at 1:32 PM, BHBret said:

I use Trail Boss in my 44 Special reloads with a 240 grain lead SWC and it burns clean. Since I’m using speed loaders I could go down to a 105 PF but pretty sure the bullet would get stuck in my barrel so I’m at 183 PF. I used this load in my Ultralight S&W 329PD and had the HKS speed loader dumped cartridges during a reload and couldn’t finish the stage. It’s making me look harder at getting a 625JM and using moon clips. Speedloaders and 44’s are just not very fast and very fumble prone, at least for me.


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Well? I used 45 acp with 185 swc's at less than 650 f/s at a state steel challenge match a couple of years ago,  bullets all made it out but by the time I heard the "ring" of steel I was done!!!  Got a bit of ribbing the guys were claiming they could see my "mortar" rounds lobbing onto the steel.  Of course that's still 118 pf.

Also did 44 russians in my m29 with 200 to 240 lead at 640 f/s, but that's still 153pf for a 240.  

Edited December 10, 2018 by pskys2