What keeps shooters from getting out of D class?

[nasty618]

I was able to get my other half from 29% to 54% in less than a month of solid effort. By solid effort i mean a few things:

 

• Dry fire. 20-25 minutes a day three-four times a week. Working on basic skills (draw, reload), table pick ups, transitions and a bit of movement, plus some mini stages on scaled targets
• Live fire. Far less from what we both would like to do... maybe 2 sessions per month, likely 1 session. 250-300 rounds each, basic skills, a few drills (Bill, El Prez, 4 Aces, etc) and some elements of classifiers
• Shooting Steel Challenge
• Watching videos of high and low level shooters and debriefing them, identifying errors and picking up tips.
• Last but not least, understanding the rules of the game and working on becoming an RO

 

The 25% jump has got her interest in action shooting going and her competitive nature is adding fuel to the fire. I no longer have to convince her to go the shed to practice - she is doing it on her own.  Needless to say, i am very proud of her and am a little scared she will kick my ass someday soon

 

So what keeps people from getting into C and B class, besides lack of effort?

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by nasty618

[Steve RA]

Not having a high enough percentage to qualify.

[nasty618]

Do you think it has to do with inability to "hook up" or performance anxiety at the matches or on classifiers? I know people who are excellent match shooters that can get out of C class, but are consistently performing as good or better as B class shooters.

[broadside72]

 

12 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Do you think it has to do with inability to "hook up" or performance anxiety at the matches or on classifiers? I know people who are excellent match shooters that can get out of C class, but are consistently performing as good or better as B class shooters.

 

I tank my classifiers often. Not on purpose but "I suck at taking tests".  I do better moving even though I am not fast.  I think that I overthink the classifiers and try too hard to not try too hard...

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Sounds like a remarkable achievement to get from 29% to 54% in One Month    

 

Also sounds like you're doing everything you need to be doing to get from 54% to 60% -

you just need to keep doing it.

 

You might just be a little impatient.    Keep going, and see where you end up in another month

or two.

 

Have you taken any lessons with a GM ?    Learned how to grip the gun and check your stance ?

Tough to progess too far with the wrong grip/stance.

 

What gun/ammo are you using ?   You might be able to tune them to pick up a little advantage.

 

Video your matches - what are you doing differently than the B shooter ?   Missing too much ?

Going too slowly ?

 

Identify your weaknesses and work on them - that's hard to do - we all prefer to work on 

our strengths.

 

I'll bet you make C in the next couple months     

[davsco]

honestly i could give a crap about my classification.  i just see how i stack up at matches against every class and division.  classifiers are just another stage for me, i don't 'go for broke' on them.  nice improvement (your gf i guess) and keep going!

[Steve RA]

l believe it was his "other half" that went from 29% to 54% in less than a month.  Reading comprehension is a real benefit !     

[nasty618]

Please forgive me - i didnt mean to be misleading with the title of the post... i corrected it. 

 

This was not meant to be a negative post in any way.  We recently had a similar discussion with a couple of my friends who were saying that it was difficult to get into B or even C class or that to get better takes a lot of time and effort.  My point to them was  "no, it doesnt".  It takes a "reasonable" amount of effort and anyone can get into B (and certainly C) within a couple of months if one chooses to do so.  

 

I just wanted to get move voices of experience to support that assertion. Or strike it down with a reasonable explanation. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by nasty618

[nasty618]

55 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

l believe it was his "other half" that went from 29% to 54% in less than a month. 

 

yes sir, i am more proud of her achievements than any of mine But  @Hi-Power Jack made some excellent points that are very relevant , so thank you for that!

Edited November 30, 2018 by nasty618

[Hi-Power Jack]

12 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

  Reading comprehension is a real benefit !     

 

But, then I'd have to learn how to talk good English  ….   

[Distant Thunder]

28 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

But, then I'd have to learn how to talk good English  ….   

 

 

English? This is the USA. We talk 'Merican!

[pskys2]

Lack of an understanding or utilization of the fundamentals. 

Consistent grip, proper and steady, not stationary, sight picture, focus on that until the shot breaks, by surprise, and follow through, probably the most common fault.

Those fundamentals have to become so ingrained that one doesn't lose them under the stress of competition.

As you progress up the classes one needs to be able to compress all of those fundamentals, but they still have to be there.

Oh, and a secret is the tinfoil under our hats, to keep out the brain wave scrambling timer tones.

[dapribek]

Some shooters just peak at D because of their abilities. I peaked at low B and no matter how hard I tried, couldn’t advance any further. Aging, health issues,  and other factors just come into play holding people back at certain levels. 

[MemphisMechanic]

Find an M class local and learn proper techniques to draw, grip, and reload your gun. How to rapidly transition to the next target. How to pull the trigger halfway straight.

 

Then go home, and... Dryfire twice a week for 15 minutes. You cannot help but end up in B class.

[nasty618]

38 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Dryfire twice a week for 15 minutes. You cannot help but end up in B class

 

That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

 

41 minutes ago, dapribek said:

Some shooters just peak at D because of their abilities. I peaked at low B and no matter how hard I tried, couldn’t advance any further. Aging, health issues,  and other factors just come into play holding people back at certain levels

 

46 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Lack of an understanding or utilization of the fundamentals. 

Consistent grip, proper and steady, not stationary, sight picture, focus on that until the shot breaks, by surprise, and follow through, probably the most common fault.

 

 

I hear that.  But all of these issues are technical problems that can be fixed with work, agreed?  Maybe more work would be required as we age, but still...  We're not talking match performance - moving, running, crouching, going prone, doing super long shots... We're not even talking about making A or M, forget about GM... we talking hitting 40% for C and 60% for B - with good fundamental skills it should be doable! So is it all coming down to one's willingness to put in work to get to a goal?  That's what i am thinking. Especially for my buddies - they are all relatively healthy men who just dont want to put in the hours - they have other things to do.   They are casual shooters and that's ok too.

[zzt]

I'm C in Open and I doubt I'll ever get out of it.  Even though I shoot much, much better than C in Matches, I tank Classifiers.  Almost all of them have some weak hand shooting (at least the matches I go to), and I have a real problem with that.  My left hand does not work the way it is supposed to, and I cannot hold a gun properly in it.  Geez, I can barely control it.  I'm B in SCSA Open and 1.88 seconds away from A in RFPO.  Why?  No Classifiers.

[regor]

Input from a new guy: I have my fourth match upcoming this weekend. I find there is a pretty big difference between the skills needed to perform well on classifiers vs standard stages. Based on overall match finish I am averaging in the 50% range (2/3 matches had at least one Open GM), and in Production my very first match was a 50% finish (with a M class shooter on top), and my other two were both 80%+ (one with an M class shooter). My classifiers tell a totally different story. My three matches were 0%, 35%, and 10% Production. I've basically guaranteed my first classification will be a D unless my next two average over 57.5%

 

Maybe I've just been unlucky with the classifiers I got, but they seem to test completely different aspects of shooting that I have never practiced before and never knew I was supposed to practice. Distance, strong/weak hand only, and engagement of head only targets with no-shoots at medium distance, all under time pressure. My classification is entirely a representation of my marksmanship fundamentals and corner-case shooting skills, whereas my match performance also reflects efficient stage planning, ability to execute said plan, ability to move well. You never shoot strong hand or weak hand only in a non-classifier. If there are distance targets it is rarely the entire course of fire. Same with head only targets, so even if you are not good with those skills, they will probably not tank your match and rarely will they even tank a single stage.

 

You don't need rock-solid fundamentals to do decently in a match as long as you just run efficient stages and having no misses/no-shoots. You do need solid fundamentals plus skills that must be deliberately worked on (like strong hand/weak hand only) to do well in classifiers. It takes a lot of time and conscientious practice to improve those fundamentals, as well as confronting your weakness and working on them, which is not something many people are willing to commit to. It takes very little effort to just show up to your local club match once a month and have fun and it is very easy to brush off poor classifier results by saying "who cares how well I shoot weak hand only at 15 yards". 

 

[davsco]

28 minutes ago, regor said:

 

Maybe I've just been unlucky with the classifiers I got, but they seem to test completely different aspects of shooting that I have never practiced before and never knew I was supposed to practice.

i think we/me can make up for some of the fundamental flaws that hurt us in quickie classifiers, by having good stage planning and economy of motion in regular, longer stages.  similarly, i normally finish further up the flagpole in uspsa, 2 & 3 gun (more movement and shooting) than i do in idpa, with its shorter stages where the draw, first shot, etc count more.  maybe it just takes me longer to get going...  the other thing is i think most really try to burn down classifiers, hero or zero.  they only count the best ones, and if you zero a classifier it doesn't kill you as much with lost points vs a 32 round stage.  and then of course there are classifier-only matches.

[MemphisMechanic]

@regor the fundamentals of handgun shooting include grip, stance, sight alignment, sight alinment, and trigger control.

 

Additionally you’re expected to have superb gunhandling. Draws and reloads. At high speed.

 

Field courses mix those in with other skills so deficiences are more easily masked. But the core reason people are stuck in D/C/B class is because of a weak mental game and deficient fundamentals.

 

If we make those things strengths through practice at home, we improve in classification. If we don’t? We do not.

 

(Sidenote? Show me a guy who shoots above 75% in classifiers consistently, and I’ll show you a guy who also runs circles around B class and below in the rest of your match.)

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[nasty618]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

My left hand does not work the way it is supposed to, and I cannot hold a gun properly in it

 

That makes sense, definitely.  Of course, a physical limitation would keep one from scoring higher. 

 

2 hours ago, regor said:

You don't need rock-solid fundamentals to do decently in a match as long as you just run efficient stages and having no misses/no-shoots. You do need solid fundamentals plus skills that must be deliberately worked on (like strong hand/weak hand only) to do well in classifiers. It takes a lot of time and conscientious practice to improve those fundamentals, as well as confronting your weakness and working on them, which is not something many people are willing to commit to. It takes very little effort to just show up to your local club match once a month and have fun and it is very easy to brush off poor classifier results by saying "who cares how well I shoot weak hand only at 15 yards"

 

Excellent points, thank you. I agree, especially on identifying and actively working on your weaknesses. As it was mentioned before, we tend to practice things at which we're good rather than "embrace the suck" and spend hours and hours on something we don't do well and are less likely to use in a match.

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, davsco said:

..  the other thing is i think most really try to burn down classifiers, hero or zero.  they only count the best ones, and if you zero a classifier it doesn't kill you as much with lost points vs a 32 round stage.  and then of course there are classifier-only matches.

 

you are bad at math. points are points. if you lose 60 points by zeroing a 12-round classifier, it is no different than getting 4-5 mikes in a bigger field course (i.e. a total disaster). 60 points. It kills you.

 

all stages are the same. All points are the same.

Edited December 1, 2018 by motosapiens

[davsco]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

you are bad at math. points are points. if you lose 60 points by zeroing a 12-round classifier, it is no different than getting 4-5 mikes in a bigger field course (i.e. a total disaster). 60 points. It kills you.

 

all stages are the same. All points are the same.

i'm actually pretty good at math.  you might want to work on your reading comprehension before incorrectly knocking others.  if you zero a classifier it doesn't hurt you as much as zeroing a 32 round stage, i didn't say just missing a few.

 

all stages are the same?  what?  so a 32 round stage has the same possible points as an 8 round stage?  past my bedtime so maybe i'm not following you.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, davsco said:

i'm actually pretty good at math.  you might want to work on your reading comprehension before incorrectly knocking others.  if you zero a classifier it doesn't hurt you as much as zeroing a 32 round stage, i didn't say just missing a few.

 

all stages are the same?  what?  so a 32 round stage has the same possible points as an 8 round stage?  past my bedtime so maybe i'm not following you.

zeroing a 32 round stage without a gun breakage is almost impossible. That's a silly comparison.

 

hero/zero has the same risks (high) and same benefits (minimal) regardless of the number of rounds.

[perttime]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

zeroing a 32 round stage without a gun breakage is almost impossible. ..

 

Forget to shoot a few targets, and your points are pretty low.

[broadside72]

12 hours ago, perttime said:

 

Forget to shoot a few targets, and your points are pretty low.

 

That or hitting the NSs