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Thinking about starting steel challenge fun shoots at my local club - What do I need to know before making this decision


Sigarmsp226

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The good news first -

1 - I have traveled to and watched two World SCSA matches and one National and I LOVE this shooting discipline

2 - I am fortunate to be friends with a local guy who has a plasma cutter and has started cutting AR500 targets so I have all of the targets and stands required to set up all eight courses, but I can only do four at a time due to my current target stand and hanger inventory

3- I am a USPSA member in good standing and I recently became a certified IDPA Safety Officer

4 - Other members have indicated that they are interested in shooting this discipline

5 - Range Owner (private owned club) is 100% on board with allowing me to start this up

 

So hear me out and provide honest feedback, comments, and suggestions....If I venture down this pathway I want to be SAFE, have fun, and build it into a possible sanctioned club for SCSA - but I want to make sure I am ready and I have the participation to keep this going.....I live in a small town with several surrounding towns that equate to about a tri-city population of about 120k and there is also a active Air Force Training Base in our area...

 

My thought was to start with the very basics - Set up several Saturday morning shoots where each Saturday I would set up 4 courses of fire and limit the number of shooters to two squads of 10....I have two I-Pads with a SCSA program loaded that allows for the shooters to be loaded and scores to be managed. I also have another SO that I work IDPA matches with that said he would help me and run one squad....

 

Now the question that I need to ask but may not want to read the responses - Am I screwing up by trying to do this in this manner BEFORE working to become qualified by USPSA ?

 

I want to start this as a Saturday fun shoot where every person that wants can come give it a try...Club Owner believes it will generate new members and my goal is to not charge anything for the shoots I set up at least for a month or two and then go from there.....Also all shooters would be required to sigh a club waver related to liability responsibility.  The club owner has everyone that steps onto his club read and sign this document or they are not allowed to come onto his club property.... 

 

I could go on but at this point I will pause to ask for feedback from the forum friends.....Be nice please.....Also I am 59 years old and want this to be SAFE fun shooting and as you can see I am willing to put my own money and time into this to give it every chance to be successful....

 

After getting to hang out at the National and World SCSA matches with B J Norris, Jessie Harrison, KC Eusabio, Max Michel, Doug Koenig, Cole Busch, Shane Coley,and other world class shooters, and these same folks allowed me to hang with their squads for mutiple days, I was hooked with this discipline. 

 

Thanks in advance for your feedback, comments, and suggestions......Mark

 

Edited by Sigarmsp226
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I got our club affiliated late last year with USPSA/SC.  The biggest problem you'll encounter is help; help with setting up and tearing down the stages.   Given the proximity to that population, you shouldn't have much trouble drawing shooters.  

 

Holding a match every Saturday might become a burden depending on your enthusiasm.  

 

Find out who your section coordinator is.  Get them involved.  They should be happy to help.   You won't get affiliated without their assistance.  

 

Get a couple Amazon HD8's for your scorekeeping devices.  iPad displays wash out in any kind of sunlight.  The Fires do a bit better.  

 

I've found it rewarding to get a club up and running.  

 

Good luck! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Start slow and run it as an introduction to Steel Challenge. I wouldn’t bother to keep score at the intro class. See what kind of interest there is and find out who is willing to help. It gets old fast setting up stages your self.

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23 minutes ago, yoshidaex said:

If the property owner allows it, using those survey whiskers/markers to mark where the targets should go will speed things up on setup day. 

 

 

I use yellow plastic tent spikes to mark locations.  Something like these.  https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Tent-Stakes-Inch-Pak/dp/B000P1QICS  Chances are you will set up the stage in the same bay all the time.  Pound a stake flush with the ground where the center of each base will go.  Place another at the 10" flag and one where the shooting box will go.  Since there will be no measuring involved after the first set up, two guys could set four stages in 20-30 minutes.

 

I would not use iPads for the reason mentioned above.  However, you have to have one iPad to make things easier.  I used inexpensive Android 8" tablets.  I have also used my Android phone.

 

I'd recommend setting it up first to find out what kind of response you will have.  Word of mouth is slow, so it might be three months before you now you can count on x number of shooters.  Then you can decide whether to become affiliated or not.

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On 11/30/2018 at 4:37 PM, ZackJones said:

Start slow and run it as an introduction to Steel Challenge. I wouldn’t bother to keep score at the intro class. See what kind of interest there is and find out who is willing to help. It gets old fast setting up stages your self.

Good advice. About 20 yrs ago a buddy and I started some informal IDPA matches at the local club. A lot of fun but a lot of work for two guys designing, setting up, and taking down stages. Not sure I would do it again without a team of people to help.

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We run an "Intro to Action Pistol" class once a month...  At the end of the class, we run them through two simple USPSA stages and score them...  We upload their scores...  Everyone wants to see what they scored and where they finished...  I wouldn't skip scoring at your intro class.

 

You don't need iOS tablets to upload Steel Challenge scores any longer...  SCSA now has a system using PractiScore.com similar to the USPSA and it works well.

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On 11/30/2018 at 6:29 PM, zzt said:

I would not use iPads for the reason mentioned above.  However, you have to have one iPad to make things easier...

 

Could you please elaborate how ipad makes things easier? I'm really curious.

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iPads make a great mothership to synch the scores with and to do your shooter registrations and such at the clubhouse. They’re just not great to score on in bright sunlight out in the bays.

 

Definitely score your shooters. People want to see how they did - our novices ALWAYS make sure they know how to find the scores before they leave even though they know they’re last!

 

And ABSOLUTELY charge for the match. Just $10 if need be... but cost is how Americans subconsciously determine value: if a concert is free, those musicians must not be worth going to see. ;) 

 

It also gives you an angle; you can bribe the faithful few to come help setup and teardown the match by offering THEM a free admission. 

 

Hold matches twice a month max. If you hold it every weekend you’ll quickly run into shooters skipping it frequently because “hey, I can always go next week. This happens all the time.” Also it’ll burn you out quickly as the one setting up.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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7 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

iPads make a great mothership to synch the scores with and to do your shooter registrations and such at the clubhouse.

 

Please do elaborate. How ipads they better from android devices?

You can get something like Amazon Fire 10 for part of the price of a refurbished ipad.

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2 hours ago, euxx said:

 

Could you please elaborate how ipad makes things easier? I'm really curious.

 

I've been told that using an iPad for the master makes syncing with the nooks and downloading easier.  I've also been told that you have to use an iPad as the master.  I don't know for sure, but I do know that all of the clubs I shoot at use at least one iPad.  One club uses all iPads.  The others use nooks or Android tablets for the stage scoring.

Edited by zzt
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The problem with nooks is:

 

(1) when you touch the screen it takes almost a full second to respond. It’s slow to score.

 

(2) if you even think about a single molecule of moisture anywhere near the screen it locks up. No sweaty fingers. No hint of mist; even being beneath an umbrella isn’t good enough. A hint of mist and they’re down.

 

Plusses? Cheap. Astonishing battery life.

 

We switched to FIRE tablets after two years with nooks. No one regrets the change.

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From the Practiscore DevBlog:

 

After Dec 31, 2018, new versions of PractiScore will no longer run on Nooks with Android 2.1. You can continue to use older app versions and we’ll try to maintain backward compatibility for wifi sync as long as we could.

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2 hours ago, zzt said:

I've been told that using an iPad for the master makes syncing with the nooks and downloading easier.

 

No difference in syncing between ipad and android. I say syncing from android is even easier because you don't have to have device screen on with PractiScore app running. Not sure what downloading is referred to

 

2 hours ago, zzt said:

  I've also been told that you have to use an iPad as the master. 

 

You certainly don't have to. Unless you really want to. 

 

2 hours ago, zzt said:

I don't know for sure, but I do know that all of the clubs I shoot at use at least one iPad. 

One club uses all iPads.  The others use nooks or Android tablets for the stage scoring.

 

Historically? Coincidentally? Because they been told to or don't know any better?

 

I'm still trying to find out why.

 

I can find Ken's notes where he says it is good to have both ios and android devices in the pack. But it is more of a precaution than necessity. I've seen large matches (including Nationals and not only in US) completed exclusively on Android and other exclusively on iOS.

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2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

The problem with nooks is:

(1) when you touch the screen it takes almost a full second to respond. It’s slow to score.

 

Actually it takes about 1 second to get its screen updated. You don't have to wait while refresh completes and can keep tapping to enter scores...

 

The bigger problem with those Nooks is that they are 10 years old and severely holding down development of PractiScore.

All modern tools and frameworks don't run on them and that is also conflicting with recent Google's app store changes.

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From the Practiscore DevBlog:
 
After Dec 31, 2018, new versions of PractiScore will no longer run on Nooks with Android 2.1. You can continue to use older app versions and we’ll try to maintain backward compatibility for wifi sync as long as we could.
Btw, to clarify. The issue is not the device, but version of Android it is running.

There are few devices with eink screen out there that should be capable of running PractiScore. Though more pricey. For example https://amzn.to/2So7SLg
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18 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I've been told that using an iPad for the master makes syncing with the nooks and downloading easier.  I've also been told that you have to use an iPad as the master.  I don't know for sure, but I do know that all of the clubs I shoot at use at least one iPad.  One club uses all iPads.  The others use nooks or Android tablets for the stage scoring.

 

Our club uses Android PractiScore exclusively without any issues...  We run all kinds of matches including USPSA and SCSA...  even Zombie matches...

 

An iOS device used to be required to upload Steel Challenge scores...  That might be what you're thinking of.

 

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On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 3:50 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

……………..

And ABSOLUTELY charge for the match. Just $10 if need be... but cost is how Americans subconsciously determine value: if a concert is free, those musicians must not be worth going to see. ;) 

 

It also gives you an angle; you can bribe the faithful few to come help setup and teardown the match by offering THEM a free admission. 

 

Hold matches twice a month max. If you hold it every weekend you’ll quickly run into shooters skipping it frequently because “hey, I can always go next week. This happens all the time.” Also it’ll burn you out quickly as the one setting up.

 

 

Very well said. Also Steel Shooting is hard on the plates, you will be replacing or repairing them more often then you might think. You will need sticks and paint, a lot of paint. 

 

Some match directors have a system where they use rope to place the targets in the correct location. Place your targets in the correct position then use make a rope template. Put on a spool for the next match.

 

I've never  taken the position of match director but I know that it is a lot of work. Once you get a system set up it becomes easier but the time it takes to run a match will cut into your practice time. So if you want to be really good at this and need to run matches make sure you have plenty of quality helpers.

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I agree with twice a month with a $10 fee for the reasons stated above.

We use survey whiskers in different colors for stage layout, that way anyone can use the cheat sheet to setup a stage with no measuring, and you can pre-set multiple stages in each bay.

Setup is quick if you have access to a gator, tractor with a bucket, or pickup truck.

Get the match info out to the local gun stores\other ranges.

Absolutely keep score! Everyone wants to see how they did. You already have tablets setup, so get them posted!

Go to your club's other matches and advertise your match at the shooters briefing.

SC is far and away the easiest match to run, quick setup and tear down (get the squads used to carrying your steel to the front of the bay after the match)

Don't leave the steel out in the bays, some jackass will test his AR on it and you will have swiss plates.

Have a table/barrel setup at the shooting box to set gun bags etc.  Make sure it is stable.

Take the time to talk with new shooters about reloading and 180/aiming over the berm.

Make a safety checklist/shooters briefing checklist so you know you covered all the basics with the shooters.

After a shoot or two, grab the shooters most excited about the match and recruit them to help.

Help your most active shooters to understand the rules and get them involved running stages\squads.

 

 

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3 hours ago, firewood said:

Very well said. Also Steel Shooting is hard on the plates, you will be replacing or repairing them more often then you might think. You will need sticks and paint, a lot of paint.

 

Teach your shooters how to paint! You will go through a fair bit, but much less if your shooters don't paint the steel bottom to top after each shooter. Also show them how to clear the paint can. When the cans get messy they get tossed, and that adds a lot to the cost.

Good steel last's pretty well, do flip the plates to slow the "dish effect" We shoot ~80 to 100 a month on 6 stages and the steel is good for years.

 

Edited by Stealsack
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We use Amazon HD8's and Fires as well as we  have a few Ipads that can be used for our matches, I had always be told to have at least one of each because if one had a glitch that the other more than likely would not have the same issue. I prefer to build and upload all of my matches on the Android's, and they also have some programing on them that the Ipad does not. such as the chrono stage. I use these for USPSA, ICORE, and SCSA matches. One thing that I would suggest is to use one as your master, and do not use it out on the match to score if possible.

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Make you sure you get a handful of other people to help. Steel is super easy to set up and run, so if you do it right, and several folks know how to do it, it won't be a burden.

 

note that there is no particular reason to set up the stages in advance. If you have some kind of markings in the pits you are using, you can just give a diagram and a pile of steel to people when they show up. 4-5 people can set up 4 stages in just a few minutes if you have motorized transport (atv, pickup, etc...) for the heavy stuff.

 

Our club does 2 types of matches. One is 4 stages at a time on mon and wednesday evenings. we have open squadding, and 4 different MD's designated, one for each day to show up at 4 and direct setup, and one that shows up around 6 and supervises teardown and posting results. So no one is stuck there for more than a couple hours. we usually run 40-60 shooters each evening.

 

The other type is a few times a year we run all 8 stages on a saturday. for those matches we break into 8 squads. Everyone helps set up and tear down, and it goes quickly. usually 3 hours or so for all 8 stages.

Edited by motosapiens
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I run steel challenge stages all summer. Well, I start the beginning of January and run them till mid-October, actually. I would like to share a couple thoughts:

 

I mark the stages with line paint. Different colors for the different stages. Lasts a long time as long as you don't "scuff" the lines.

 

I have started putting receptacles in ground for stages. Easy to make easy to use. I have 4 usable "bays" and I do 1 in-ground stage in 3 of them. I mark them with paint and put at ground level. That way I set up 6 stages in 3 bays (3 in ground and 3 on stands) and changing over is a matter of 3 or 4 minutes.

 

I shoot 6 days a week but I do (usually) Tuesday nights for my friends to come shoot. Having a set day/time helps people schedule for shooting. Seems to help and I get 4 - 8 "regulars" as well as whatever guests they bring. Many people want to try it and a relaxed setting seems to help.

 

I think if you do this you really need to be "invested" in it. What I mean is, allow people to actually try, learn, and get classified. I shoot (well I guess used to shoot) at a local club that has done SC for about 4 years. The original MD was great! We showed up early, set up, shot and tore down. He had health problems and stepped down. The guy that took over was never an SC shooter. He would set up with his buddies. The stages were very often set up wrong. (ie: Outer Limits 3' between boxes, distances between targets incorrect, targets set at 4' high, etc) The problem was that they sent the scores in to Practiscore. I tried to explain it to him and he felt he was "just a volunteer" so what did it matter? He has since started to do more USPSA type courses by adding targets to SC  stages. "I used to shoot there".

 

I think you could do a great thing there. Don't get discouraged, don't get burned out and have fun! Your club and your shooters will (and should!) thank you for it.

 

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Id start at once a month max,,, would also check surrounding area for competition. IE other popular matches. See what kinda numbers they are drawing and if there is an open weekend.
With the cost of getting started, I think cutting off at 20 shooters makers it more trouble than it is worth. 
You got four stages, set up, should be  4 squads... Or even 8 squads with different start times. That would allow people to enter 2 guns if desired.
Personally Id get RO certified. Probably worth your time and you will learn alot.  Maybe encourage a few more to get certified. 
Not to mention knowing the rules, having a national org bless off on you knowing the rules, and then enforcing said rules, could go a long ways to saving your bacon in a liability issue.
Also I dont think anything can kill a match faster than inconsistent, rules or scoring. Or rules/scoring not IAW said rule book.

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