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What have you done THATS WORKED or seen work to “game” a stage?

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At club matches there's sometimes a way to game a stage.

 

Rarely, there are ways to gain an actual advantage gaming a stage.

 

I've seen people act like they've cured cancer or smashed an atom by gaming something, only to need 12 rounds to finish a plate rack, or forget to engage something, or get an A/M/NS on a 5 yard target

 

I can't think of a single stage at a major match where there were any substantive opportunities for gaming. 

 

For 99% of us, we'd probably benefit from more focus on getting better points, or doing better visualization before the stage. 

Edited by konkapot
typo

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44 minutes ago, konkapot said:

I can't think of a single stage at a major match where there were any substantive opportunities for gaming

 

 

you're doing it wrong. I've seen a couple at A1 and multiple Nationals where a 20-30% advantage could be gained, for example by leaning *way* through a window and shooting at an angle instead of moving, hanging from a rope and shooting left-hand-only. Not something we even dreamed of in the staff match.

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6 hours ago, echotango said:

Isn't this a game?

I do table starts like that all the time. Not sure why that is not ok? It is available for everyone to do. If you chose not to, that is your decision. And it is not in the magwell.  I never recall it saying magazine must be X inches away from gun. Sometimes there is an X for your gun and an X for the mag. 

 

Never said it (or "gaming" in general) wasn't ok. Apologies if the use of the phrase "exploiting stage design and/or stage briefings" came off that way.

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@motosapiens-I don't dispute that as a definite possibility. I guess I'd modify my statement with the qualifier "....Off the top of my head......" 

 

I'll stick with my closing statement; across the board most of us would benefit more from more focus on other stuff. 

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18 minutes ago, Rez805 said:

Never said it (or "gaming" in general) wasn't ok. Apologies if the use of the phrase "exploiting stage design and/or stage briefings" came off that way.

 No prob. Sometimes things come out not as intended. 

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12 hours ago, Rez805 said:

...

  • (Table Start with first mag on table/barrel) Magazine basically in the magwell when it's on the table. Clap your hands, rack it, go!

..

 

Last time I had a table start, the designer had marked separate areas for handgun and "all magazines to be used".

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Quote

What have you done THATS WORKED or seen work to “game” a stage?

 

Read the rulebook.

You have to know what's allowed.

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Anytime it you are required to move an object from one place to another, it is almost always a higher HF if you don't and take the penalties instead.  If the WSB say it has to be in the 2nd location before you engage the last target or it's a per shot penalty, shoot at steel for the last target if possible. 

 

Also see if there are places you can engage a target without moving to another position.  Lean far out of a port etc.

 

Also, keep an eye on fault line.  Once I shot next to a balance bridge not on it, because they only put a fault line on one side

 

 

Edited by Supermoto

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Standing on the backside of walls when they are part of the shooting boundary is a big way to game and has been exploited at many majors.  Was a big hitter at SC this past year.  I'm not sure, but I think new proposed rules are aimed at eliminating this.

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At one match I heard of a few guys making use of an interesting option.

A long course had one popper all the way left of the stage at approx 40 meters and same thing on the right side of the stage. You had to start the stage on either the left or the right side, beginning with these poppers.

We saw many guys fire several shots at the poppers before they went down.

A few guys decided to just shoot one shot at each popper as fast as possible and proceed with the rest of the stage, this way avoiding a procedural for not shooting at a target but gaining a lot of time on other competitors.  Doing the math regarding hit factor / time versus points / results from other competitors, this could've given them the stage win.

I don't believe it actually resulted in a stage win for either of them, but that was a pure definition of 'gaming' in my book....

Edited by WFargo

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11 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

Standing on the backside of walls when they are part of the shooting boundary is a big way to game and has been exploited at many majors.  Was a big hitter at SC this past year.  I'm not sure, but I think new proposed rules are aimed at eliminating this.

thank goodness that has been fixed. IMHO that was a very unsportsmanlike interpretation in the first place.

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2 hours ago, WFargo said:

At one match I heard of a few guys making use of an interesting option.

A long course had one popper all the way left of the stage at approx 40 meters and same thing on the right side of the stage. You had to start the stage on either the left or the right side, beginning with these poppers.

We saw many guys fire several shots at the poppers before they went down.

A few guys decided to just shoot one shot at each popper as fast as possible and proceed with the rest of the stage, this way avoiding a procedural for not shooting at a target but gaining a lot of time on other competitors.  Doing the math regarding hit factor / time versus points / results from other competitors, this could've given them the stage win.

I don't believe it actually resulted in a stage win for either of them, but that was a pure definition of 'gaming' in my book....

i did see a stage win at a section championship intentionally taking a miss to cut out a position. a mini-popper was fully available from only 1 spot, and you didn't have to go to that spot for anything else, but a little sliver of it could be seen from a different spot, so the winner just fired an extra shot near it, skipped the position, and won the stage.

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12 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

Standing on the backside of walls when they are part of the shooting boundary is a big way to game and has been exploited at many majors.  Was a big hitter at SC this past year.  I'm not sure, but I think new proposed rules are aimed at eliminating this.

 

If declared as part of the shooting area in the WSB I get, but what other conditions would have allowed that? I am trying to learn

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

thank goodness that has been fixed. IMHO that was a very unsportsmanlike interpretation in the first place.

 

What rule #? Again, trying to learn.

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56 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

If declared as part of the shooting area in the WSB I get, but what other conditions would have allowed that? I am trying to learn

 

 

What rule #? Again, trying to learn.

 

The first part of 10.2.1:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

 

If an object (such as a wall) is constructed as part of the shooting area, meaning that there is no separate fault line in front of the wall, it can be used for support without penalty.  Some interpreted that to mean that if a wall extended beyond a perpendicular fault line, then you could stand on the wall support beyond the fault line.  If the double dashed line below is a wall, the bracket is the wall stand, and the single line is a perpendicular fault line, instead of standing at "A" to engage targets beyond the wall, people would straddle "A" and "B".

 

=================] B

                         A |

                             |

                             |

 

This is highly dependent on how the wall supports are constructed.  Clubs that use circular cement wall stands or triangular wooden struts were more at risk for people doing it.  We use thin, flat metal stands, so it would be nearly impossible to stand on ours while not touching the ground.

Edited by JAFO

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Thanks for that last example, I had not thought about that case.  I had heard about the touching the fault line making it part of the shooting area but not "extending" the shooting area in such a manner.  

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1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

Thanks for that last example, I had not thought about that case.  I had heard about the touching the fault line making it part of the shooting area but not "extending" the shooting area in such a manner.  

 

It's exploited like this.  https://youtu.be/hNagQZM72Cg?t=80

 

Totally allowed by the current rules.  

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Have completely blown a stage because I was too focused on a trick at some point in the stage and too little focused on simple and routine execution.

 

Have seen others blow a stage, or a match, after the r.o. refused to allow what they considered to be legal gaming and they got their heads into the debate and out of the shooting

 

Gaming can be fun & useful, sometimes playing things straight works out much better. 

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13 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

It's exploited like this.  https://youtu.be/hNagQZM72Cg?t=80

 

Totally allowed by the current rules.  

 

Funny, I just saw a different video day or two ago of a Production GM shooting the same COF without that trick. Thought it looked familiar. https://youtu.be/azWxYzxa8_E?t=33

 

In the "gaming" clip, is there a rule that required him to activate the pad, or was that just to be cheeky? 

 

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25 minutes ago, regor said:

 

Funny, I just saw a different video day or two ago of a Production GM shooting the same COF without that trick. Thought it looked familiar. https://youtu.be/azWxYzxa8_E?t=33

 

In the "gaming" clip, is there a rule that required him to activate the pad, or was that just to be cheeky? 

 

 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

If the mover can be shot at rest before activating, as the shooter did by standing on the wall support, then they must still activate the mechanism or be penalized.  However, activating it as he did in the video didn't count towards the stage time, because it was done after the last shot fired.  Level I matches can stipulate in the WSB that movers must be activated prior to engaging (as some clubs may lack the props to hide them effectively at rest).

Edited by JAFO

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The current rule, is that every prop must be activated before the stage is complete.  i.e. "the holster" command.  I believe there is a proposal to change our rules to be more like IPSC for this.  The prop MUST be activated before the last shot is fired on a stage.  So, in this case, when he came back, he would have had to fire one more shot after he activated to avoid penalty.

 

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11 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

If the mover can be shot at rest before activating, as the shooter did by standing on the wall support, then they must still activate the mechanism or be penalized.  However, activating it as he did in the video didn't count towards the stage time, because it was done after the last shot fired.  Level I matches can stipulate in the WSB that movers must be activated prior to engaging (as some clubs may lack the props to hide them effectively at rest).

 

Great, another rule I've run into confusion on.  From the most recent interpretation I've heard is 9.9.3 applies to disappearing targets that would normally not incur FTSA and miss penalties.  This only keeps you from not activating a moving target that is disappearing and that you plan to skip.  Otherwise, shooting a mover with all hits before activating means there is no way you can apply a FTSA or miss pentalties, the target was engaged and shot.  For these targets it must be in the written stage briefing that it must be activated in order to apply a penalty for not activating.

Edited by theWacoKid

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10 minutes ago, Trent1k1 said:

The current rule, is that every prop must be activated before the stage is complete.  i.e. "the holster" command.  I believe there is a proposal to change our rules to be more like IPSC for this.  The prop MUST be activated before the last shot is fired on a stage.  So, in this case, when he came back, he would have had to fire one more shot after he activated to avoid penalty.

 

 

Rule?  I thought the same thing, but I was challenged to find the rule and couldn't. If it's in the stage brief, sure.  Otherwise there's no penalty for not activating a moving target that you shoot without activating.

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4 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

Great, another rule I've run into confusion on.  From the most recent interpretation I've heard is 9.9.3 applies to disappearing targets that would normally not incur FTSA and miss penalties.  This only keeps you from not activating a moving target that is disappearing and that you plan to skip.  Otherwise, shooting a mover with all hits before activating means there is no way you can apply a FTSA or miss pentalties, the target was engaged and shot.  For these targets it must be in the written stage briefing that it must be activated in order to apply a penalty for not activating.

 

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be pre-sented.

 

^^^ This imposes FTSA and miss penalties to moving targets that present a portion of the A zone at rest, or which are in continuous movement.

 

 

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

 

^^^ This exempts disappearing targets from the penalties in 9.9.1 except where 9.9.3 applies.

 

 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

^^^ This states that ALL moving scoring targets (disappearing or not), and moving no-shoots that must be activated to expose scoring targets, will incur FTSA and miss penalties if you don't activate the mechanism.

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