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nasty618

Are we getting the right value out of our membership fees?

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In the last couple of weeks i've read comments that expressed disappointment with the way organizational things are handled, so I wanted to start a separate thread to get some opinions and learn in the process.

 

And please note that this is just what i have witnessed in my limited experience, so I would love for folks that have been shooting for 5-10-15 years to chime in and either confirm my assertions or invalidate them.

 

For reference, this topic was inspired by very good discussions in these neighboring threads:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/267474-area-4-championship-target-presentation/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-2974835

and more recently this one:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/268639-classifiers-from-2018-nationals-are-official/?do=findComment&comment=2989496

 

On 11/26/2018 at 1:33 PM, sc68cal said:
Quote

I also want to point out that all of us pay USPSA handsomely in Mission Count and Classifier fees every weekend to do this stuff right but it still gets screwed up on a regular basis.  

 

+1 - we get what we PAY and VOTE for.

 

 

If the notion here is that our membership and match fees are not being used appropriately (that is, to provide the membership with better and more enjoyable services) - I would like to challenge that notion.

 

Allow me to elaborate.  What should we expect from the USPSA management?  Before we can answer that simple, yet very complex question, lets take a look at what we have now (and i am sure this is far from a complete list, so please add to it as you see fit)

 

  • Digital tools
    • Wide spread use and full adoption of Practiscore system.  Allows real time updates to all members for free, but of course a big effort to develop, implement and maintain. 
    • USPSA Mobile App.  A ton of useful tools in there, complete up to date Rulebook, Classifier look up and Classifier Diagrams, Club and Match Locators, Results and your Membership Card.  Free to download and use. Also not free to develop, implement and maintain. 
    • Revamped and more powerful USPSA website with a lot of great tools, to include the RO certification/recertification online tests.  Free to members.  You guessed it... someone had to make that happen and it probably wasnt free.
  • Organizational and event news on Social Media, email distributions and overall online presence. Always free, but requires staff hours to support.
  • Rule updates and communication to membership - in near real time.  Requires effort and staff to support
  • Very well organized major matches to include my very first and only major match so far - the 2018 USPSA Nationals.  Requires a HUGE effort.
  • Last but probably not least...  stuff to complain about with our fellow shooters - well that one is free and we maintain it ourselves :) 

 

How were things 10 years ago? Were you able to enjoy all of the above? Were those things even available? 

 

And after you answer that... in you opinion, what else should we expect from the management that our 40 dollar per year membership fee and recurring match fees are currently not paying for?

 

P.S. Thought i'd also include the USPSA Mission Statement - it might be helpful to point out things they are failing to achieve and which would be expected with paid membership and match fees:

 

Quote

The USPSA Mission Statement is:

 

Our mission is to promote safe, fair and fun participation in Practical Shooting competition, for members of all ages and skill levels, through effective leadership, education, communication and administration.

 

Our Strategic Initiatives are:

 

• Grow the USPSA Brand

• Grow the membership

• Return clear value to our members

• Educate our membership in all facets, at all levels

• Raise positive public awareness about our sport

• Develop clear, unambiguous rules and policies

• Re-establish involvement as a fundamental aspect of our sport

• Reclaim our roots for the next generation

• Develop new forms of practical shooting competition

• Actively pursue Junior involvement

• Drive consistency through every level of the organization

• Deliver our services better, faster, cheaper

• Give our customers more than they expect

• This is OUR organization

 

Edited by nasty618

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A couple notes USPSA didn't develop Practiscore, nor does it cost them anything. Also, the only Major match that is run by the leadership would be nationals. The rest are up to the membership. Well kind of, AD's work on Area matches, and SC's work on section matches. But those guys are just members too. All the cost is covered by match fee's, and all the work is done by volunteers, and the match still has to pay HQ when it's done.

 

What you get of value is rules and classifications. Knowing you can go anywhere and shoot USPSA and it will be run the same way is worth a lot.

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16 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

In the last couple of weeks i've read comments that expressed disappointment with the way organizational things are handled, so I wanted to start a separate thread to get some opinions and learn in the process.

 

And please note that this is just what i have witnessed in my limited experience, so I would love for folks that have been shooting for 5-10-15 years to chime in and either confirm my assertions or invalidate them.

 

For reference, this topic was inspired by very good discussions in these neighboring threads:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/267474-area-4-championship-target-presentation/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-2974835

and more recently this one:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/268639-classifiers-from-2018-nationals-are-official/?do=findComment&comment=2989496

 

 

 

If the notion here is that our membership and match fees are not being used appropriately (that is, to provide the membership with better and more enjoyable services) - I would like to challenge that notion.

 

Allow me to elaborate.  What should we expect from the USPSA management?  Before we can answer that simple, yet very complex question, lets take a look at what we have now (and i am sure this is far from a complete list, so please add to it as you see fit)

 

  • Digital tools
    • Wide spread use and full adoption of Practiscore system.  Allows real time updates to all members for free, but of course a big effort to develop, implement and maintain. 
    • USPSA Mobile App.  A ton of useful tools in there, complete up to date Rulebook, Classifier look up and Classifier Diagrams, Club and Match Locators, Results and your Membership Card.  Free to download and use. Also not free to develop, implement and maintain. 
    • Revamped and more powerful USPSA website with a lot of great tools, to include the RO certification/recertification online tests.  Free to members.  You guessed it... someone had to make that happen and it probably wasnt free.
  • Organizational and event news on Social Media, email distributions and overall online presence. Always free, but requires staff hours to support.
  • Rule updates and communication to membership - in near real time.  Requires effort and staff to support
  • Very well organized major matches to include my very first and only major match so far - the 2018 USPSA Nationals.  Requires a HUGE effort.
  • Last but probably not least...  stuff to complain about with our fellow shooters - well that one is free and we maintain it ourselves :) 

 

How were things 10 years ago? Were you able to enjoy all of the above? Were those things even available? 

 

And after you answer that... in you opinion, what else should we expect from the management that our 30 dollars per year and match fees are currently not paying for?

 

Just so you know Practiscore had NOTHING to do with USPSA, it was developed because a competitor wanted a better solution and decided to develop it himself.

 

 

 

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In the last couple of weeks i've read comments that expressed disappointment with the way organizational things are handled, so I wanted to start a separate thread to get some opinions and learn in the process.
 
And please note that this is just what i have witnessed in my limited experience, so I would love for folks that have been shooting for 5-10-15 years to chime in and either confirm my assertions or invalidate them.
 
For reference, this topic was inspired by very good discussions in these neighboring threads:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/267474-area-4-championship-target-presentation/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-2974835
and more recently this one:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/268639-classifiers-from-2018-nationals-are-official/?do=findComment&comment=2989496
 
 
that's my buddy you tagged in that comment and he gets that way when he doesn't eat. he just needs a snickers lol

I agree with your point though as my $45 goes a long way. The organization is growing and I also went to my first nationals this year and it was amazing. im only 2 years into this sport but I love having an outlet on the weekends after working hard all week.

Our local matches and club affiliations are growing tremendously up here in the northeast region. I look forward to the continued success and growth of the sport. Will it be flawless always? no, but it's worth whatever emotions is causes. nice topic

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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Big things, new divisions for example, should be voted on by the membership rather than handed down to the membership. 

 

We need to move r.o. training from horse and buggy to 21st century, videos are cheap.

 

Those are my only gripes worth griping about. 

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I’d like to see an overhaul of the classifier system to reflect real time calculations of new high hit factors. They have the data. It’s programmatic. 

 

An ro course takes so mhch effort to put together right now that it will make you want to throw up. As said above that needs fixed. 

 

I’d also like to see club contacts and range officer communications go out in targeted emails. Rulings etc should be shared or scenarios and how to score them. 

 

Standardizing and accepting an approved wsb method should be looked at.  You see dozens of ways that wsb are done up it would be nice to have an official method. One club uses PowerPoint one uses sketch up another uses trident. 

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45 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Just so you know Practiscore had NOTHING to do with USPSA, it was developed because a competitor wanted a better solution and decided to develop it himself.

Absolutely.   Eugene is doing an awesome job maintaining the apps he developed.  What i meant was USPSA support, adoption and wide usage of it (which is still a process that needs staffing and effort) and that translates to members enjoying a quicker and less error prone scoring system and ability to check scores in near real time.   

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1 hour ago, nasty618 said:

If the notion here is that our membership and match fees are not being used appropriately (that is, to provide the membership with better and more enjoyable services) - I would like to challenge that notion.

 

Allow me to elaborate.  What should we expect from the USPSA management?  Before we can answer that simple, yet very complex question, lets take a look at what we have now (and i am sure this is far from a complete list, so please add to it as you see fit)

 

OK, I'll bite. Since I was quoted out of context - the point of my post was that the classification system itself and the methodology used is not transparent, and prone to outcomes that are not desired - and that the membership has no insight into how it is developed and maintained, despite our membership dollars funding it.

 

So let's go through some of the things:

 

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:
  • Digital tools
    • Wide spread use and full adoption of Practiscore system.  Allows real time updates to all members for free, but of course a big effort to develop, implement and maintain.

 

As others have stated - Practiscore is not owned or operated by USPSA. It is owned and operated by someone who has volunteered an absolutely mind blowing amount of time and resources into improving the shooting sports, out of their own pocket. This was not done by USPSA. Our membership dollars did not pay for it, and we are getting it for free. I honestly think Practiscore was developed because there was a time in the past where USPSA was not doing a good job of having tools being developed.

 

I will also highlight the following rule in the USPSA Rulebook:

 

 
Quote

 

9.11.1
The scoring program approved by USPSA is the EzWinScore. No other
scoring program must be used for any USPSA sanctioned match with-
out the prior written approval of the President of USPSA. The most
recent version of the scoring program is available from t
he USPSA
website. PDA’s or handheld computers may be used for the collection
of scoring data for transfer to EzWinScore, provided the program and
procedure has been approved by the USPSA President.

 

 

I have never seen EzWinScore be used. Ever.

 

Since we're on the rulebook, there are rules in the USPSA Rulebook that have not aged well and probably should be re-examined and pruned. Rule 9.11.1 was a rule that was never going to be "evergreen" and subject to change as new scoring tools come along. It should never have been put in the rulebook. I'm sure there are other examples of rules that have not aged well and probably can be removed with absolutely no impact on the game.

 

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:
  • Rule updates and communication to membership - in near real time.  Requires effort and staff to support

 

The USPSA hard copy rulebook is incredibly out of date - more than 4 years of rule clarifications, rulings on equipment, and tons of other things. It has gotten so bad that their solution now is an electronic "evergreen" rulebook that can be updated without having to print new rulebooks and mail them to people. That is certainly one way to solve the problem, but I have concerns that using an electronic way of delivering a rulebook can allow the velocity of rule changes to _increase_ and the complexity of rules to _increase_, rather than having the printing of dead-tree rulebooks and the monetary investment of that operation acting as a braking mechanism on the velocity of change. This is just my unfounded speculation however. We'll see in the coming years.

 

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:
    • USPSA Mobile App.  A ton of useful tools in there, complete up to date Rulebook, Classifier look up and Classifier Diagrams, Club and Match Locators, Results and your Membership Card.  Free to download and use. Also not free to develop, implement and maintain. 
    • Revamped and more powerful USPSA website with a lot of great tools, to include the RO certification/recertification online tests.  Free to members.  You guessed it... someone had to make that happen and it probably wasnt free.

 

 

The USPSA mobile app, the membership cards, and the USPSA website, are not "Free to members" - we paid for those with our dues.

 

I will also note that the USPSA revamped website was many years in the works, has had functionality that was present at launch subsequently disabled, and also had at least one vendor get fired and replaced with another in order to finish the project. So, an information technology project that was delivered late, and most likely over budget. You can read through the BOD meetings and the IT parts of the presentations for more details.

 

 

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:
  •  
  • Organizational and event news on Social Media, email distributions and overall online presence. Always free, but requires staff hours to support.

 

Those are not free - those are paid with money from membership dues, activity fees, and such, paid by USPSA members. In addition, these operations in my opinion are things that non-profit organization should be doing, and by the way in FY 2016 the sale of advertising earned USPSA money. Which is good! But it's not free.....

 

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/911325053_201612_990T_20171010_14819069.pdf

 

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:
  • Very well organized major matches to include my very first and only major match so far - the 2018 USPSA Nationals.  Requires a HUGE effort.

 

2018 Nationals was an outstanding success - and running and organizing nationals is a major job for the USPSA organization.

 

However, I will note that while Nationals was attended heavily, the majority of USPSA membership does not attend nationals. USPSA needs to also support the growth and development of new local clubs, since in Area 8 (and I'm sure everywhere else) matches fill up within the first minutes of registration opening on Practiscore. We are a victim of our own success, in that we need more room to grow. A great problem to have, and I know that the Area 8 director is aware of this problem and has been working on solutions - but this going to be USPSA's bottleneck for more growth - having enough local clubs that have matches so that everyone who wants to play can play.

 

At one of the banquets, the President of USPSA also noted that the staff is getting older and that more people are needed. This is going to be a generational challenge moving forward, where the folks who made the organization as it is today, needs to have a group of new young people that can take over once they start to slow down. That is happening, I believe, but it is something that we all need to be aware of and work towards. There simply aren't enough CROs for major matches, since all the major matches I went to this year pretty much had the same staff people at every match. That means a lot of work is falling on not a lot of shoulders.

 

Same thing with local clubs. There's a lot of work that falls on not a lot of shoulders at local clubs to put on matches, and that's going to cause burnout and then the clubs will shut down, leaving the area with less clubs to shoot USPSA at.

 

USPSA has challenges, like any organization. We as the members need to be aware of these challenges, be aware that we have a voice and a stake in how USPSA is run, and that we all make the sport that we all choose to make. I may not agree with every single decision that USPSA does, but if I didn't care I'd be doing something else with my time :)

 

 

 

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Absolutely.   Eugene is doing an awesome job maintaining the apps he developed.  What i meant was USPSA support, adoption and wide usage of it (which is still a process that needs staffing and effort) and that translates to members enjoying a quicker and less error prone scoring system and ability to check scores in near real time.   
Absolutely.   Eugene is doing an awesome job maintaining the apps he developed.  What i meant was USPSA support, adoption and wide usage of it (which is still a process that needs staffing and effort) and that translates to members enjoying a quicker and less error prone scoring system and ability to check scores in near real time.


Do you know that "Eugene" is not even an USPSA member and usually receiving a second hand information about USPSA updates and changes.

Also, adoption of PractiScore has nothing to do with USPSA HQ. It was driven by match directors who saw it as a time saving thing for them and several groups of adopters and tech savvy folks who been helping those match directors.

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3 minutes ago, euxx said:

 


Do you know that "Eugene" is not even an USPSA member and usually receiving a second hand information about USPSA updates and changes.

Also, adoption of PractiScore has nothing to do with USPSA HQ. It was driven by match directors who saw it as a time saving thing for them and several groups of adopters and tech savvy folks who been helping those match directors.

 

We appreciate your app. :cheers:

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Tell the truth. I’ve scored matches on paper and I can say I’d rather cut my own throat than do it again. 

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21 minutes ago, euxx said:

Do you know that "Eugene" is not even an USPSA member and usually receiving a second hand information about USPSA updates and changes

 

I do!!  :)  I am hugely impressed with the amount of effort that you've put into your apps.  We've exchanged a few emails about that exact subject (scores and changes), actually... I offered to help with x-platform testing of the apps...  I wanted to give back to the sport by contributing my time since i have the skills, tools and the know how in that specific area.

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Thank you guys for expressing your points of view - i really do appreciate them.  I just wanted to have a constructive discussion and point out the good things that we did not have 10 years ago.  From what i've seen - the progress from even a year ago is good and the organization is moving on the right direction.  I choose to see the positives in that.  Is there room for improvement? Always!!  Are there negatives and shortcomings? of course... but lets not forget all the great things that we have come to enjoy

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Good things-- 

all the scoring..

new staff..

 

BAD things-- 

Social media drama.. 

loss of staff over said drama.

 

we will always have room to grow.. but we need to keep in check the complaints... at some point a complaint with an off the wall solution becomes unreasonable...

I've always been told-- don't like something.. then recommend a solution..

 

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15 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

Good things-- 

all the scoring..

new staff..

 

BAD things-- 

Social media drama.. 

loss of staff over said drama.

 

we will always have room to grow.. but we need to keep in check the complaints... at some point a complaint with an off the wall solution becomes unreasonable...

I've always been told-- don't like something.. then recommend a solution..

 

Who did we lose?

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2 hours ago, Sarge said:

We appreciate your app. :cheers:

 

Technically PractiScore is Ken's app. I'm just a volunteer.

The Competitor one is mine 😊

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More support for the volunteers who run local matches would be good.  Some kind of how-to-run-a-USPSA guide would be useful.  Yes, some clubs have directors or presidents who basically do it forever, but lots of clubs rotate through volunteers.  That means that there's a steady influx of people who have shot USPSA, but never run a USPSA club before, constantly learning how to do things.  How to upload scores (much easier than it used to be, to be sure), how to renew membership, how to deal with host ranges, how to source supplies, how to build and maintain props, etc.  Rather than forcing every new guy to learn that stuff on his own or hope the old guy remains engaged enough to walk him (or her) through it, how about putting some helpful guides together?  

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To determine "Value" of our membership I think we also need to fully understand what that cost really is. The obvious cost is the up front membership fee. These range from $25 - $1000 based on the duration and level of membership you select. The basic annual membership is usually $25 or $40 with the Front Sight Magazine. The Value of this up front membership fee really comes down to the frequency and level of match participation. For example, If you only attend 1 match a year that isn't a good value. If you attend 50 matches a year its an awesome value.

 

The commonly forgotten USPSA membership fee's are the Mission Count ($1.50 per shooter) and Classifier ($1.50 per classifier) assessed for each match. These Fee's are usually rolled into the overall match fee, but its important to understand that these fee's still exist. We can use our two participation frequency examples above to quantify the magnitude of these fees. One match a year shooters fee is $3.00. Fifty match a year shooters fee is $150. These fee's also increase the higher level the match is, if they are using classifier stages, and all that good stuff. 

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The thing that blows my mind about how USPSA does business today is their total reliance upon Practiscore while they provide them ZERO compensation or assistance in supporting that effort.

 

Using Practiscore allows clubs to facilitate fast and effective match scoring along with producing USPSA match report generation so clubs can pay their "Mission Count" and "Classifier" fees to USPSA. Currently the ONLY WAY to generate these match fee reports is to use Practiscore so clubs can pay USPSA the appropriate match fees.

 

Practiscore essentially has 100% control of USPSA's primary revenue stream (Club & Major match fees). The Practiscore people could flip a switch and turn it all off any time they want and USPSA would be completely screwed. For some insane reason USPSA is ok with this arrangement. To me this is gross negligence on the part of USPSA because they allowed that whole situation to happen because they abandoned their own scoring system (EzWinScore) and chose not to replace it with anything else. They simply rode the "Free Practiscore" coat tails all the while collecting fees endlessly while not paying Practiscore for anything.

 

I also don't want to make this sound like the Practiscore people are in the wrong in this situation. Practiscore has brought the scoring process for all practical shooting sports into the 21st century. We absolutely needed a more modern competition shooting scoring program or process and the Practiscore team knocked it out of the park. My beef is with how USPSA keeps milking the "Free Practiscore" cow endlessly while collecting our membership fees to do the job. A portion of our USPSA Fee's should be going to support and maintain a viable scoring system. Today, it is not. Why is that? 

 

From a different vantage point think of it like this. When a match has scoring problems and need assistance who do you think they call? USPSA? Hell no they don't because USPSA has NO CLUE  or ABILITY to support Practiscore directly. These people end up calling Practiscore for help and they graciously provide that support for once again ZERO compensation. Why should Practiscore be on the hook for endless FREE match scoring tech support to assist USPSA matches happen? Why are our USPSA fee's not being spent to cover this support?

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... Some kind of how-to-run-a-USPSA guide would be useful.  ... there's a steady influx of people who have shot USPSA, but never run a USPSA club before, constantly learning how to do things.  How to upload scores (much easier than it used to be, to be sure), how to renew membership, how to deal with host ranges, how to source supplies, how to build and maintain props, etc.  Rather than forcing every new guy to learn that stuff on his own or hope the old guy remains engaged enough to walk him (or her) through it, how about putting some helpful guides together?  


There used to be an uspsa club operation manual. A 150+ pages binder with all that. You can still find a year 2000 edition pdf if you it google around. Some parts of it are outdated by now, but there still some good parts in there.

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There used to be an uspsa club operation manual. A 150+ pages binder with all that. You can still find a year 2000 edition pdf if you it google around. Some parts of it are outdated by now, but there still some good parts in there.

I have the latest version in pdf and a few other formats... I asked for it last year.
While I was in leadership for a section, and passed it out to our section..


And have lots of searching they gave it to me in publisher format... I converted to word and pdf..

I was told it is going to be updated.

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19 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

I have the latest version in pdf and a few other formats... I asked for it last year.
While I was in leadership for a section, and passed it out to our section..

And have lots of searching they gave it to me in publisher format... I converted to word and pdf..
I was told it is going to be updated.

 

It only took me two minutes of googling to find an online pdf copy posted by some of the clubs. It would be interesting to see an updated version...

 

25 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The thing that blows my mind about how USPSA does business today is their total reliance upon Practiscore while they provide them ZERO compensation or assistance in supporting that effort.

 

If you as President, he'll tell you that they did pay money to PractiScore... It took some digging to find those, as it was an one time voluntary donation for an undisclosed amount... But then if there is already free service they can use, why pay for it?

 

25 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

...The Practiscore people could flip a switch and turn it all off any time they want and USPSA would be completely screwed...

 

Damn! Why I haven't thought of that! :)

 

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Maybe a better way to put this Practiscore vs USPSA situation into perspective is this.......... How long do you think USPSA could keep their doors open if Practiscore decided to "Turn Off" the function of scoring for USPSA matches? Remember, that the vast majority of USPSA's reoccurring revenue are the Mission Count and Classifier fee's clubs pay every single weekend.

 

They wouldn't be able to develop and deploy their own scoring system that matches the capability of Practiscore before running out of money. Or end up spending a crazy amount of money to buy an existing scoring system and then try to force feed it to all of their affiliated clubs.

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20 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Maybe a better way to put this Practiscore vs USPSA situation into perspective is this.......... How long do you think USPSA could keep their doors open if Practiscore decided to "Turn Off" the function of scoring for USPSA matches? Remember, that the vast majority of USPSA's reoccurring revenue are the Mission Count and Classifier fee's clubs pay every single weekend.

 

They wouldn't be able to develop and deploy their own scoring system that matches the capability of Practiscore before running out of money. Or end up spending a crazy amount of money to buy an existing scoring system and then try to force feed it to all of their affiliated clubs.

 

They don't need to match full PractiScore capacity... But maybe their long term plan is to develop their own scoring app or make it part of USPSA app.

 

So, your statement is not quite correct. You know that PractiScore apps don't depend on the web site (web site does help, but it is not essential) and will continue to work even if PractiScore remove functionality from the future app updates. Besides, there is IPSC scoring too, which is basically identical, as well as 3..4 other systems for scoring matches USPSA can adopt. Even IPSC is developing its own scoring system...

 

All in all it is a low risk for USPSA. But I have to say - not supporting local US crew (well, almost local) does not look good... It looks as "screw you" approach.

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