TODAY ONLY: Interview with Bob Vogel, the paper GM

[APL-G35]

Haha this thread is fire. I agree with Ssanders224 about the natural talent being a hindrance. Not that I have a great natural talent but most things have come pretty easy to me. I’ve been shooting awhile semi serious. Maybe averaging 6k a year and not much practice. I was at 93.8% this year. It’s hard for me to stay motivated or push to get that extra bit because it seems M class is basically where I ran out of my “talent”. I could get there but to get to GM is much harder. 

[Nik Habicht]

On 11/28/2018 at 8:43 AM, rowdyb said:

Oh, and if you look in here you find and old thread from another respected, national top 10 shooter who has a post asking "what are the easiest classifiers to make gm?" The horror, someone trying to find the easiest classifiers for gm. Total paper gm behavior right? Oh wait, that's Matt Mink.

 

The paper gm argument is weak.

That reminds me of the 2003 Factory Gun Nationals, where a lot of people were asking WTF is Matt Mink?  He was a B class shooter at the time, and finished the match in 3rd, IIRC behind Sevigny, posting a Master Level score.  I believe that got him the promotion to M - but it was 15 years ago, so maybe I'm foggy on a detail or two....

[rowdyb]

You're right. It is what thrust him into the spotlight and got him his CZ deal.

[Jcgatus]

On 11/28/2018 at 11:57 AM, rowdyb said:

And in Stoeger's book he says he got to be GM his first classification match because he practiced the hell out of classifiers for months ahead of time. Isn't that exactly the type of behavior which many deride? Selective memory is a killer...

Im fairly new, which book of Stoeger did he mention this? 

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, Sarge said:

What it “is” is bulls#!t! Dumbest thing I have ever read on the internet.

 

"The internet" covers a lot of ground.

Very strange to see the author start out in left field and fight hard to stay there.

 

A gift for math was my thing, blew the grading curves before college, got A's in college but had to do the work to be there. 

Many people have a thing, the folks I have admiration for are the ones who never stop doing the work to maximize meager gifts, it is easy to be motivated when achievement comes easily. 

 

Does being good at whatever happens to be your thing, and putting the work in (largely because it is fun and you are seeing the results and achieving the goals) make you a better or worse achiever than somebody who keeps up the discipline with only meager reward?

 

Kind of more of a life question than a shooting question. Many shoot primarily for fun. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, Jcgatus said:

Im fairly new, which book of Stoeger did he mention this? 

 

"Skills and drills for the practical pistol shooter" , intro pages vi & vii.

 

I do not see him saying that he spent much time practicing classifiers, lots of time on the basics (draw time, reload time, etc). 

[praetorian97]

A young man once taught me that "Practice is a crutch for the talentless."

[motosapiens]

19 hours ago, Sarge said:

What it “is” is bulls#!t! Dumbest thing I have ever read on the internet.

 

says the guy who couldn't make sergeant major.........   lulz.

 

(of course i got stopped at staff sergeant, so I shouldn't talk, doh).

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, Sarge said:

 So I’m not a GM because I don’t try? Got it. I’m glad it doesn’t take at least a little god given talent, better vision, better knees and back, reflexes of a 20 year old, and enough money for countless thousands of rounds a month for practice. (Oh wait, the reason I can’t afford the ammo is because I’m only mediocre at life.)

 

now you're just making excuses, and lame ones at that. If you're not as good as you want, It might be because you don't try, or it might be because you are trying at the wrong things, or it might be because you are putting your effort into other stuff that you enjoy more than getting better shooting. I think it's a mistake to take what cha-lee said so personally and act is if he is calling you a loser.

 

I made M in limited at age 56, with 2 bad knees, a missing tendon in my right pinkie, and metal plates in my left femur and collarbone, shooting about 1000-1200 practice rounds monthly (which costs far less than I spend on beer). I don't know if I'll ever make GM. Not sure I really care. What I *do* know is I'll get better than I am today, and I'll have fun doing it.

[IHAVEGAS]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

What I *do* know is I'll get better than I am today,

 

At 56.

 

Maybe. 

 

"And you know that you're over the hill 
When your mind makes a promise that your body can't fill"

 

                                                                        Little Feat

 

  

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

At 56.

 

Maybe. 

 

 

57 now, but no maybe about it. 30 mins of focused practice can still produce measurable results on individual skills. I chopped a few tenths off my steel challenge times in september by just working specifically on the draw and transitions for a few days.

 

Heck, I think there's a 5% or more improvement available just by reducing my alcohol intake, if I ever get that desperate.

[IHAVEGAS]

Just now, motosapiens said:

57 now, but no maybe about it.

 

At 57 breathing tomorrow is a maybe, but I understand what you are saying and I hope that your health cooperates and you have fun getting there.

[jkrispies]

O

Okay, I’ll chime in. When Mozart was alive, a long term (though basic) study was run on “child prodigy musicians” including Mozart.  Think of very young children playing musical instruments beautifully and everybody says they are the proof of “talent.” Other researchers have analyzed this study through today.  Most of these children either had parents who were musicians and/or misic teachers,  or the arents hired teachers and the kids were formally trained in music from a very young age.  Long story short, these young people achieved mastery at a remarkably young age because they began coached practicing at an even more remarkably young age.  Especially interesting is that most of these young people did not pursue music in adulthood.  Why?  Because this “talent” was a skill forced on them by thier parents and was one they held little interest in once they took control of thier own lives.  Josh Waitzkin (Searhing for Bobby Fischer) is a less extreme but modern example of this.  

 

So, am I saying that talent doesn’t exist at all?  Not entirely.  Wilt Chamberlain had a physical takent for basketball and Willy Schumacher had the opposite physical takent that made him an amazing jockey.  But, more importantly, both those gentlemen spent countless hours in further developing thier physical talents with specific skill training.  

 

Training far and away trumps talent... and “talent” generally isn’t what most people think it is.   

 

So, back to the topic:  do people who choose to extensively, properly, and enduringly practice skills tested in classifiers and matches becone GM’s?  Yes. Is this a fact apply to all?  Good question.  Grand mastery is a tall order, bit I have no doubt that we can all push ourselves farther than we initially believe in any endeavor with the proper practices.  

Edited December 6, 2018 by jkrispies

[praetorian97]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:33 AM, motosapiens said:

speaking of knowing the rules..... the rules explicitly allow you to re-shoot classifiers for classification (not match score)

 

Our club needs a reset on the understanding of this rule. I asked NROI about this sometime ago and it was suggested that allowing classifier reshoots is intended for Mechanical Issues, i.e. Jams etc... The sport is performance on demand. 

 

Right now it's treated as, hey I think I can do this better. 

[motosapiens]

Meh. whatever.  Mechanical issues, jams and brainfarts are pretty much all the same as far as I'm concerned. As long as people aren't reshooting constantly, I don't see why anyone else should care.

[praetorian97]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

Meh. whatever.  Mechanical issues, jams and brainfarts are pretty much all the same as far as I'm concerned. As long as people aren't reshooting constantly, I don't see why anyone else should care.

 

It's a form of dilution when you can have a warm up run. We have classifier reshoots to process at 9 out of 10 matches. 

 

Can you imagine the difference in match scores if we were allowed to take mulligans at them?

[motosapiens]

Just now, praetorian97 said:

 

can you imagine the difference in match scores if we were allowed to take mulligans at them?

 

you mean like trying get a reshoot when you hit a no-shoot next to the plate rack?  

 

You are in a better position than I am to know if it's a problem, since you handle the scores. Out of 60 people if 1 or 2 want to reshoot a classifier, I don't have an issue, unless it's the same people every single week, then perhaps a little peer pressure is in order. But whatever. We don't have to agree. I think the issue is almost entirely unimportant. The classifier system is set up in a way that sometimes screws people over, so I'm cool with people being able to screw it back, but I also don't really care. Match results count. Classifications don't.

[IHAVEGAS]

23 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

Training far and away trumps talent... and “talent” generally isn’t what most people think it is.   

 

Yet you don't see a lot of short NBA players, quarterbacks with thick glasses or jockeys over 6 feet tall. 

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Yet you don't see a lot of short NBA players, quarterbacks with thick glasses or jockeys over 6 feet tall. 

 

physical build is not what people mean by 'talent'.

[jkrispies]

Sorry, double tap. My phone exhibited a lack of talent....

Edited December 6, 2018 by jkrispies

[IHAVEGAS]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

physical build is not what people mean by 'talent'.

 

Not what you mean perhaps, usually the person with "natural talent" in a sport , has invisible physiological gifts - reflex - vision - ability to process information quickly - memory - whatever and visible gifts as well. 

 

Not disputing that training maximizes talent. 

 

[obsessiveshooter]

I'm willing to admit that, given my current priorities in life, making GM isnt going to happen. I only have so much bandwidth, and right now being a GM lover and GM international assassin / freelance fighter pilot are all I have time for.
I dont really practice, and I only dry fire the night before a match. A high A classification is about all I can expect from that, since classifiers measure stuff that requires good focused practice. I don't doubt I'll make M, but it's going to be a while given the meager investment I can give at the moment. Maybe when the kids are in college, I can give what it takes for GM. It's there for the earning.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[praetorian97]

It seems the intent started off harmless just as you described, but down the road an inch became a mile. The most heinous example of abuse was three shooters leaving their squad to go reshoot the classifier. But no scores or money were turned in. The more regular occurrence is a second attempt simply cause the shooter felt they could do better. Well no doubt we can all do better after a warm up run. 

 

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you mean like trying get a reshoot when you hit a no-shoot next to the plate rack?  

 

 

It's pretty clear on what is required when knocking down steel after passing through a hard cover surface or scorable target. It's sad that in this scenario there needed to be an argument even. My interpretation of that was screwing over a local hotdog took precedence over following a rule. FWIW said local hotdog still took second overall on that stage even with NS scored. BOOM. Mic Drop. 

[motosapiens]

33 minutes ago, praetorian97 said:

It seems the intent started off harmless just as you described, but down the road an inch became a mile. The most heinous example of abuse was three shooters leaving their squad to go reshoot the classifier. But no scores or money were turned in. The more regular occurrence is a second attempt simply cause the shooter felt they could do better. Well no doubt we can all do better after a warm up run. 

 

 

It's pretty clear on what is required when knocking down steel after passing through a hard cover surface or scorable target. It's sad that in this scenario there needed to be an argument even. My interpretation of that was screwing over a local hotdog took precedence over following a rule. FWIW said local hotdog still took second overall on that stage even with NS scored. BOOM. Mic Drop. 

 

 

just busting your chops on the stage reshoot. all you gm's and your gaming tricks. 

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I'm willing to admit that, given my current priorities in life, making GM isnt going to happen. I only have so much bandwidth, and right now being a GM lover and GM international assassin / freelance fighter pilot are all I have time for.
I dont really practice, and I only dry fire the night before a match. A high A classification is about all I can expect from that, since classifiers measure stuff that requires good focused practice. I don't doubt I'll make M, but it's going to be a while given the meager investment I can give at the moment. Maybe when the kids are in college, I can give what it takes for GM. It's there for the earning.
 

 

or you could switch to pcc.