.40 Major with Unique?

[regor]

Hi all,

 

Planning on eventually making the move over from Production to Limited Major with a CZ TSO .40 S&W. I currently have a whole heap of Unique that I am using in my 9mm minor loads and would ideally like to use that for both so I can work up a load and make the switch sooner rather than wait until I am close to through with that batch of powder (which will take quite a while with 9mm minor loads) before making the switch. I took a look at my Lyman cast bullet handbook and it seems like major is achievable with Unique and without going above max.

 

Does anyone have any experience with it making major? I don't see unique mentioned often on the .40/10mm forum, is there a particular reason why? 

[Rnlinebacker]

Seems like it's in a good spot on the burn chart so should be totally fine for .40 major

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Marty123]

Unique powder has been around forever and used by many.  It should meet your requirements making major with proper work-up.

[jcc7x7]

I ran about 16 lbs of Unique a few years ago when any powder was hard to find.

I came across two 8lbs cans and bought them knowing  Unique is one of those powder that seems to work for everything LOL

I ran 5.4grs , 180gr MG jacketed, Spp anything I could get including some sm. rifle primers, Mix brass, at 1.185 in several 2011 and Para 16.40 pistols

General avg was 174 PF and it shot fine, not to much snap as I remember.

then went back to WST which I've used for years etc etc

[revchuck]

I just chronographed some loads I made up a few years back.  5.5 grains of Unique under a 180-grain RNL with a WSP primer at 1.12" ran 960 fps from my M&P 40, PF is 172.8

[regor]

Thanks everyone! I'll pick up some .40 projectiles with my next batch of 9mm and get to load development. 

[Jfitz427]

I’ve used unique for 40 major. Unique was my favorite powder when I was new to ,reloading, impossible to double charge a case so I felt it was very safe. I would use it for 380, 9mm, 40, 45 38spl. Very versatile powder for sure.,

 

Uniques recoil is really harsh, so I don’t use it anymore. Even with 147s and 9mm with a middle of the road charge it still kicks a lot. I’ve substituted titegroup for all the above calibers, it’s anorher very versatile powder. But overall I think it’s a great powder. 

[Joe4d]

Jack of all trades powder but master of none. popular with recreational shooters that load small quantities of lots of rounds. Also good in throwback rounds that are over size for what they do. As it takes up lots of room in the case and leads to good accuracy. Cases originally made for black powder,,, or cases lengthened so they wouldnt chamber in older black powder guns.
If I had it I would use it, but I wouldnt buy more for either application. Too slow burning to be ideal. Although it will work fine and you have lots of shooting to do before you start losing matches due to powder selection.
Why you dont see it talked about much in competition circles.
For Minor 9 and Major 40,, you will see the same handful of powders over and over..
Tightgroup, 320, WST,  every so often a new one comes out that gathers some fans... Sport Pistol,  E3,  Promo, 

[regor]

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Edited January 26, 2019 by regor
apparently tabs don't work here

[regor]

Thought I'd post an update after getting a chance to do load dev on this. Working from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, and using 180gr RNFP projectiles, min load is 4.6gr seated at 1.13" and should be 926fps (166PF) out of a 4" barrel. I have generally found the Lyman loads to be hotter than they list, and the TSO has a 5.2" barrel, but I am seating longer so I decided to start at 4.8 and work down, and that worked out well because my highest load was the only one that had a comfortable margin for Major.

 

Pistol: CZ Tactical Sport Orange

Barrel Length: 5.2"

Projectile: Missouri Bullet Company 180gr IDP #5 Grooveless (RNFP)

Powder: Alliant Unique

Primer: Winchester SPP

OAL: 1.165" (max that will reliably plunk for me when using mixed brass. Mag length for the TSO with this profile is around 1.18)

 

 

Charge weight | Velocity | Power Factor

4.8                      945           170.1

4.7                      930           167.4

4.6                      891          160.4       

_________________________________

Something weird going on here. I'm not sure if this was a scale issue when loading or a chrono issue. The 4.5 group had an atrocious SD and spread (30 and 90 fps respectively), the other two had fliers up around 165 PF that brought their averages up. Not too concerned about this anyways since all of them are still way below Major. 

4.5                      878           158.0 

4.4                      883           158.9

4.3                      880           158.4 

_________________________________

4.2                      854           153.7

Probably closer to 152 true average, but again had a flier way up at 162 that pulled the average since I was only loading 7 rounds at each weight. The other 6 were all within 151-154 PF

 

 

Hopefully that helps someone else figure out where to start out for their loads. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by regor

[Jfitz427]

6 hours ago, regor said:

Thought I'd post an update after getting a chance to do load dev on this. Working from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, and using 180gr RNFP projectiles, min load is 4.6gr seated at 1.13" and should be 926fps (166PF) out of a 4" barrel. I have generally found the Lyman loads to be hotter than they list, and the TSO has a 5.2" barrel, but I am seating longer so I decided to start at 4.8 and work down, and that worked out well because my highest load was the only one that had a comfortable margin for Major.

 

Pistol: CZ Tactical Sport Orange

Barrel Length: 5.2"

Projectile: Missouri Bullet Company 180gr IDP #5 Grooveless (RNFP)

Powder: Alliant Unique

Primer: Winchester SPP

OAL: 1.165" (max that will reliably plunk for me when using mixed brass. Mag length for the TSO with this profile is around 1.18)

 

 

Charge weight | Velocity | Power Factor

4.8                      945           170.1

4.7                      930           167.4

4.6                      891          160.4       

_________________________________

Something weird going on here. I'm not sure if this was a scale issue when loading or a chrono issue. The 4.5 group had an atrocious SD and spread (30 and 90 fps respectively), the other two had fliers up around 165 PF that brought their averages up. Not too concerned about this anyways since all of them are still way below Major. 

4.5                      878           158.0 

4.4                      883           158.9

4.3                      880           158.4 

_________________________________

4.2                      854           153.7

Probably closer to 152 true average, but again had a flier way up at 162 that pulled the average since I was only loading 7 rounds at each weight. The other 6 were all within 151-154 PF

 

 

Hopefully that helps someone else figure out where to start out for their loads. 

Wow, my load data for it I believe had the start around 5.2 and max was a little over 6, so I decided on 5.8gs. I never chronod the load though. But if 4.8g gave you 945, I imagine the 5.8 I was loading was probably over 1100fps. It was loaded pretty short too, 1.135 since it was loaded back when I shot glocks. Never noticed any pressure signs though, but the recoil was kinda harsh. 

[Joe4d]

What you have discovered is the usable range on the low end of our case/bullet/OAL..  You will see this on the high end as well when you work up.
Your velocity plateaus and your SD's tend to fly apart.
What I alluded to earlier about Unique being a good all around powder for recreational shooters. They tend to want medium accurate loads and arnt overly concerned with meeting a specific power factor. Also why companies like Lyman put a start and max load in their data.. Higher or lower and it doesnt work so well.
In gaming we tend to need a power factory first, THEN reliability, then accuracy. 
Often powder selected on the fast end, so that we get near max charge weights and density but still make power factor.. This tends to get decent accuracy.  Many people look at a loading manual see powder "x" generates the best velocity, assume it is best, then reduce it for power factor and end up with dirty guns and not so great SD.
That being said, I see no reason unique shouldnt produce good 170 pf ammo with 180's.  Its not that much outside range of ideal. I think you should tripple check your results.  4.8 seems kinda low for the PF you are getting,, also OAL seems a bit long for what is normal with many CZ barrels.

[regor]

7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

That being said, I see no reason unique shouldnt produce good 170 pf ammo with 180's.  Its not that much outside range of ideal. I think you should tripple check your results.  4.8 seems kinda low for the PF you are getting,, also OAL seems a bit long for what is normal with many CZ barrels.

 

I got a sample pack of these 180s with my last order of 124gr 9mm projectiles. I'm going to load up the rest to verify the results but 170 PF with 4.8 gr doesn't seem odd to me. The Lyman book said 4.6 gr min = 926 fps out of a 4" barrel, 5.2 max = 998 fps. That's 72 fps over .6 grains; extrapolated linearly that's 12 fps/gr, which would put the predict velocity for the 4.8gr load at 950 (171 PF), compared to my observed 945 fps (170 PF). Lyman uses a shorter barrel, but I seated mine substantially longer than the 1.13" from the load book and am using coated bullets with more bearing surface than the cast bullets with lube grooves from the manual, so I wouldn't be surprised if those factors pretty much offset the difference. 

 

W.r.t. the oal, I am aware that CZs tend to have shorter throats but with these projectiles 1.165 plunk tests fine, I was able to seat out to 1.17 and still plunk test, but I wanted to have a little wiggle room for seating depth because I'm using mixed brass, and I wanted to make sure there was plenty of room in the mag (rounds started getting tripped up around 1.175-1.18 in the mag for me). If I see any feeding issues I'll shorten them up a little, but at this point I see no need to. 

[regor]

17 hours ago, Jfitz427 said:

Wow, my load data for it I believe had the start around 5.2 and max was a little over 6, so I decided on 5.8gs. I never chronod the load though. But if 4.8g gave you 945, I imagine the 5.8 I was loading was probably over 1100fps. It was loaded pretty short too, 1.135 since it was loaded back when I shot glocks. Never noticed any pressure signs though, but the recoil was kinda harsh. 

 

Were you using 180 gr projectiles? Lyman has 5.0-6.3 for their 150s. My Hornady book doesn't have Unique in it but for all the crossover powders Lyman has higher min and max loads, and as I said, so I would be surprised if any other manual had higher loads, especially loads that listed their min as Lyman's max... 

[Joe4d]

Went back and checked a manual.. Based above on chrono a bunch of 180 bullets for powerfactor,,  powders much faster than Unique seem to need about 4.8.. And that is with Match Barsto 5" and 6".  not sure the data you are looking at but I am looking at 175 cast bullets over 4,8 Unique doing sub major in Lyman 49.
Not doubting you,,  just encouraging you to triple check before you head to a major  match and get burned at chrono... Just IME,,  u should be around 5.2...
If ur  gun, load, etc makes major with 4.8,,  thats great !   Probably be the bees knees with 244... which is a bit faster but specifically made to produce less smoke with coated bullets and be cleaner than unique

[revchuck]

@regor - I recommend that you re-check your loads over the chrono.  My results above (5.5 grains giving 960 fps) agree with other folks' results with the same charge.  The only manual I have that shows Unique in .40 S&W is Speer #14, and it gives 6.0 as the starting load and 6.7 as the max, using jacketed bullets.  Using Bayou 180-grain coated LTCs over 5.8 grains of CFE-P (similar burn rate as Unique) gave 980 fps.

[regor]

I will load up the rest of the sample pack at 4.8gr and test them out the next time I go to the range. I will follow up here when I do. 

 

11 minutes ago, revchuck said:

My results above (5.5 grains giving 960 fps) agree with other folks' results with the same charge. 

 

Your load was also substantially shorter. 1.12 vs 1.165, even shorter than the listed 1.13, which is bound to make a difference. 

 

41 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

not sure the data you are looking at but I am looking at 175 cast bullets over 4,8 Unique doing sub major in Lyman 49.

 

Here's the data I'm looking at, from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2017). The load above this is a 175gr projectile at 1.125" with a starting load of 4.8gr Unique and a velocity of 911 (164 PF), perhaps that's the load you are referring to? A heavier pill over an identical charge is going to result in a higher PF (e.g. my highest tested 147gr 9mm load was 3.5 gr Unique and 142PF, versus my lowest 124 gr load which was 3.8gr and 129 PF, both loaded to 1.11"). My results seem to match this data; though that doesn't explain why this data is so different than what other people are saying and what other manuals say.

 

[Jfitz427]

14 hours ago, regor said:

 

Were you using 180 gr projectiles? Lyman has 5.0-6.3 for their 150s. My Hornady book doesn't have Unique in it but for all the crossover powders Lyman has higher min and max loads, and as I said, so I would be surprised if any other manual had higher loads, especially loads that listed their min as Lyman's max... 

Yes sir, 180g plated flat points. Pretty sure the data I used was from Lee. My house is all packed up right now but if I can find it after work I’ll put up some pics. 

[Effectus Magis Per Minor]

I am also shooting Unique with 180 gr. bullets in .40 S&W, from a Glock 22. I have found that loaded to OAL 1.140 with 5.0 Unique chronos at 967 FPS with 180 BlueBullet, while 180 MontaGold JHP took 5.5 grains to reach 941 FPS.

[Jfitz427]

I just shot the last 100rds of the 180 plated and 5.8 unique load yesterday, These were super old, and were done for back when I was shooting glocks. So 5.8 grains and loaded at 1.135. The recoil was stout to say the least. But no pressure signs or anything. I should have chromod them, I’m sure the velocity was very high. And this data was from Lee. I use mostly titegroup and clays now though. But I will say this load was pretty clean. I’m thinking because it was so hot. Unique at lower loads is very dirty in my experience.