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IHAVEGAS

Nov USPSA mag, pcc rules

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13 minutes ago, stick said:

From my experience, If I hold the timer low on the right side of the PCC, it registers 99.9% of the time.

 

I agree 100%.

I run the timer for steel challenge matches on occasion. We usually have 1 timer set for 22 rifles or other very quiet guns and another set for the more audible guns, I'm not certain that this is entirely necessary but it works well, I think they started the practice because the 22 rifles gave them problems initially. In any case, when both you and the shooter are basically stationary then I do not see any issues.  

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1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

Actually an accurate meter is way more than you’re expecting. 

Spllabs

and termlab are two of the Meyers used by sound off organizations. 

Then you have the b&k meter as well

 

Accuracy is always expensive, but we are not trying to detect a mouse fart at 30 yards. If the noise is good enough for the timers then it is good enough. 

 

A free approach might be to:

      1. Pick the most common timer now in service at the majority of the clubs.

      2. Specify sensitivity setting for the test.

      3. Specify position of gun and timer for the test.

      4. Fire 3 shots. 

 

As with chrono tests now, it would be better to have two timers when making the test. 

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We run dedicated PCC matches under outlaw rules instead of USPSA rules for a variety of reasons, including this issue and the associated prohibition on suppressors. The relevant rule in our case is:

 

Sound suppressors (silencers) are permitted in all divisions. However, if the shot timer fails to pick up the last shot, an Event Official may have to tap the timer in order to get a recordable time. Any timing error so caused will not be grounds for a reshoot.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know "competitive equity blahblahblah"... a guy can dream, can't he :roflol:

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Turning up the sensitivity is not that big of a deal and I’ve yet for timer to pick up a shot from next bay over. The only issue that may arise is sometimes the timer can pick up the hammer click, so just make sure you’re looking at time before issuing command and turn away the microphone or hold it behind back for scorekeeper to see it. 

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I've been through two nationals and several major matches with PCC squads (though we always seen to have one open shooter), we didn't have a single "timer didn't pick up the last shot" reshoot.

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6 minutes ago, PPGMD said:

I've been through two nationals and several major matches with PCC squads (though we always seen to have one open shooter), we didn't have a single "timer didn't pick up the last shot" reshoot.

 

Not surprising at all. If folks stay away from the super quiet guns/loads things work fine, except I haven't had a rain & bagged timer day without some issues. 

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15 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Not surprising at all. If folks stay away from the super quiet guns/loads things work fine, except I haven't had a rain & bagged timer day without some issues. 

 

Last nationals one person in our squad made minor by a hair (125.1 IIRC). We also had bagged timers due to rain.

 

I of course don't have that issue as I'm often pushing 155ish.

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27 minutes ago, PPGMD said:

I've been through two nationals and several major matches with PCC squads (though we always seen to have one open shooter), we didn't have a single "timer didn't pick up the last shot" reshoot.

 

Every single major I went to this year (6), had at least 1 or 2 on my squad. And I actively try to squad with as few PCC shooters as possible.

Edited by Maximis228

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1 minute ago, Maximis228 said:

 

Every single major I went to this year (6), had at least 1 or 2 on my squad. And I actively try to squad with as few PCC shooters as possible.

 

My experience with locals is that with the folks I know I can point out which will probably need a reshoot or two and which never do. I have not tried to break it down (paid attention) to which gun brands & etc are the most nuisance, will attempt to take note for my own curiosity. 

 

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@IHAVEGAS my PCC is set up much like an open gun. Short stroked. Light, fast action. I run a somewhat hot 124 at around 145pf, because the gun shoots flatter. That also means my bullet is just barely supersonic, in addition to a comp that kicks a lot of gas to the side. Guess who has never had a reshoot for last shot issues? ;)

 

(A lot of guys try to run them like big production guns. Sluggish 147s, and light buffer springs. I don’t understand why. It shoots soft, but every single one I’ve shot is back on target much slower than mine.)

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Pocket Pro 2 with sensitivity af 22 - 23. Works like a charm. The only downside is during "bolt close" command, the timer will pick it up so just be extra cautious. 

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6 hours ago, PPGMD said:

 

I of course don't have that issue as I'm often pushing 155ish.

 

 

4 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@IHAVEGAS my PCC is set up much like an open gun. Short stroked. Light, fast action. I run a somewhat hot 124 at around 145pf, because the gun shoots flatter. That also means my bullet is just barely supersonic, in addition to a comp that kicks a lot of gas to the side. Guess who has never had a reshoot for last shot issues? ;)

 

 

Makes great sense, plus I expect you folks are not waiting forever for activators to drop and do not have the conscientious r.o. getting in your field of vision in order to stay on top of your gun. 

I think eventually all of the smart shooters will do it :) 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, happygunner77 said:

Pocket Pro 2 with sensitivity af 22 - 23. Works like a charm. The only downside is during "bolt close" command, the timer will pick it up so just be extra cautious. 

 

That, and some duct tape to hold it on the gun and you are golden!

Edited by IHAVEGAS
Swine auto correct

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The quiet PCC's are very problematic Yes, you can ratchet up the sensitivity, but at clubs such as ours with bays very close to each other, a loud open gun fired close can get registered. So, if the end of the run, and the next bays shooter has a gun that blows holes in the sky, what time is right? As an RO, it is really tough to make that call.

 

I can see all types of "gaming" issues dreamed up by shooters to make this work to their advantage. There was a great thread earlier on this subject. The timer we use is meant for the total time, not a counter. I have already witnessed more then one argument over what time was "realistic", and again, that can turn into quite a subjective call, and can waste a lot of time on the range.

 

There will be a boatload of RO interference reshoots should the shooter think he had a bad stage, and wants that reshoot. If an RO is right next to you getting the timer super close, I can see the accidental run over the RO oooppps. From all of the great training I have gotten from NROI and highly experienced RO's, asking the shooter where they will end up is not kosher.

 

The RO's main job is to keep everyone safe. We are watching the trigger, fingers, 180's, AD's other shooters, and staying the hell out of the way.  Add watching the movement of the timer display is adding yet another safety issue into the relm. It is not that difficult getting the correct position in steel, but chasing quick high speed USPSA shooters is another story. To my way of thinking, it should be incumbent upon the PCC shooter to provide the means of timer solutions if they know the carbine is known to cause missed times. We have shooters who do bring their own timers just for this.

 

I admit there is no easy solution to this, but putting the RO in the position to get run into the ground is certainly less then desirable. It seems to me RO's have enough on the plate to run a stage as it is. 

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I have been the RO on many PCC shooters in my area and at my club.  My only issue with PCC is that some of them are on the quiet side.   Knowing which one sometimes is not easy to identify.  Also, trying to be in the correct position for the last shot is not always in the competitors interest or the RO's ability depending upon stage layout and how it is engaged by the competitor (same stage engaged in different approaches).   I do my best and if a re shoot happens (only a few times) then it happens.  We all have to figure out the best way to approach it to give the competitor his earned score and maintain the safety and rules of the stage.  I always mention to my PCC shooting friends to have a louder gun.

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My PCC gun (14.5 barrel+comp) doesnt seem to cause issues, but I run between 145 and 150pf ammo. It looks like some top folks at nationals seem to run PF in that range. Maybe there is something to that

... 

Edited by Patrick Scott

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