CalTeacher Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Ok, so here's the scenario. Over the weekend I was running the timer on a stage that had a starting box. The box was within a larger shooting area marked by fault lines. The rear of the starting box butted up against the rear portion of the shooting area marked by fault lines. The WSB stated that the starting position was "standing in box." Every shooter on our squad, except for one, took that to mean exactly what it says...that you stand with both feet in the starting box. One shooter wanted to start with one foot inside the starting box with his other foot outside the box on the rear fault line that the shooting box was adjacent to. Picture this: the rear fault line runs parallel to the rear of the starting box. His foot was a good two feet outside the shooting box on the fault line that ran parallel to the box. I told him he had to stand with both feet within the shooting box and he insisted that he is allowed to start with one foot in the box because he is "still standing in the box." He even claimed that he had asked Troy if this was legal and Troy said yes. I refused to start him until both feet were within the box. Here's the weird part. He contacted the RM, who agreed that he is allowed to start in that position on that particular stage. Was I wrong in not allowing him to start in his preferred manner? I can't find anything that makes me think I was wrong as an RO to force him to comply with the WSB as we all (except him) understood it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I can’t state a rule on this because I’ve never thought about it. I do know that if you have a foot on the ground outside the fault line you are faulting and get a procedural for each shot fired. So I guess that rule works in reverse too? If the RM says it’s cool you have to live with it for that match. I think you did the correctly as you should, aslong as the shooter kept it civil. It should’ve been declared in the WSB if this was a wrong move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 "standing in the box" is not the same as "standing completely in the box" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, broadside72 said: "standing in the box" is not the same as "standing completely in the box" Is “within the shooting area” the same as “completely within the shooting area?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour ago, CalTeacher said: Was I wrong in not allowing him to start in his preferred manner? Yes. Because. 1 hour ago, CalTeacher said: He contacted the RM, who agreed that he is allowed to start in that position on that particular stage. That was your job. Technically. When stuff like this comes up I think the real thing is for both parties to not get upset about it, you made what you thought was the right call, no animals were harmed during filming, and the next RM might make the opposite decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: Yes. Because. That was your job. Technically. When stuff like this comes up I think the real thing is for both parties to not get upset about it, you made what you thought was the right call, no animals were harmed during filming, and the next RM might make the opposite decision. He contacted the RM after he shot the stage because he didn’t want to argue the matter right then and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Poorly worded WSB. We've started using stuff like "wholly inside" to leave no ambiguity.Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 37 minutes ago, CalTeacher said: He contacted the RM after he shot the stage because he didn’t want to argue the matter right then and there. Did he get a reshoot? (Stage 4 or 5?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ChuckS said: Did he get a reshoot? (Stage 4 or 5?) He declined a reshoot. Stage 5 Edited November 21, 2018 by CalTeacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 This is the kind of crap that happens when DNROI rules that standing outside shooting area means one foot can be in and one can be out and visa versa. Opened a big can of worms and now it’s more of a wording game to get shooters where you want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Is “within the shooting area” the same as “completely within the shooting area?”There are specific rules about shooting within the fault lines, if that is what you are hinting at. There are no specific rules about interpreting a start position that is vague in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 I don’t see how “standing in box” is vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.Hylton Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Range lawyers will argue anything. I would have done the same thing as the OP. There is no starting box in the rule book - just shooting boxes. I would have treated it like a foot fault in a shooting box. If he was touching anything outside the box, that is not connected to the box, then he is outside of the box. One foot in the box and the other not touching the ground, then I would have started the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) The Matches that I've gone to, recently, mainly go for two different definitions for starting location: - standing anywhere within the marked shooting area or - shoes touching marked spots on the fault line. Edited November 21, 2018 by perttime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 At one of the clubs I shoot at, they have added two spray painted dots on the box. The WSB says standing in the box, toes touching the marks. The wording on the WSB has to be clear and leave no room for independent interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour ago, stick said: At one of the clubs I shoot at, they have added two spray painted dots on the box. The WSB says standing in the box, toes touching the marks. The wording on the WSB has to be clear and leave no room for independent interpretation. A simple and elegant solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I’ve tried it one in one out both in don’t see any advantage so I just start in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 7 hours ago, David.Hylton said: Range lawyers will argue anything. I would have done the same thing as the OP. Why not immediately ask the RM whenever there is a dispute? Shooters seem to react much better when I volunteer to get the real authority for the match involved and if r.o.'s are moving with squads then the RM can make sure everyone plays by the same decision. The RM is also usually more skilled at handling these kind of situations than the average RO. Looking at it as a shooter, if something is really important enough to matter (very very rare) and I feel like the RO is wrong, it does not matter what the RO says we need to get the RM. I am not above asking the shooter who initiated the dispute to go and find the RM if a hike is involved and other shooters can be ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Standing in box is pretty clear to me. I would have done the same as the OP. We should not need a lawyer to do our WSB's. The only way the shooter can have only one foot in the box is if he is doing a yoga pose with one foot in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Paul B said: Standing in box is pretty clear to me. But your opinion is of no importance, unless you are the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Your opinion does not matter either. If I am your RO you are welcome to hike for the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour ago, EEH said: I’ve tried it one in one out both in don’t see any advantage so I just start in. In this case, it meant the difference of seeing one or both of outboard targets at the start signal. Maybe not a huge gain but it all adds up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I like the start anywhere in shooting area or toes on marks. The stages I design do not have boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I shoot with a guy that just got his RM and he says it’s legal. Why ? I don’t know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 34 minutes ago, EEH said: I like the start anywhere in shooting area or toes on marks. The stages I design do not have boxes. I would of just put a couple of X's on the center wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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