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Is Single Stack Dead?


Rosswoodford

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Combining SS minor with Production would result in SS race guns dominating the division the same way that 2011s dominate Glocks or SA/DA steel guns in Open. And for all the same reasons. 

 

Worse, Production, unlike any other division, has a dual role. One is a playground for those who choose it as their primary division, but another is to have new or occasional shooters compete in relatively stock division. Having Production be dominated by raced up 1911s would kill this second role. We might as well put new shooters straight into Limited or Open - many of us wouldn't care if we were starting today, but there are many more out there who would. I see it all the time with new shooters who feel intimidated by all the gear, then relax once they are told that they would be in a stock division. Even though it has no effect on their performance, they do feel better about it and are more inclined to give it a try and stick around. 

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As for what to do with SS, some combination with L10 would make a lot of sense. This is coming from an L10 shooter in a commie state. 

 

Since 1911 vs. 2011 is mostly a wash when capacity is restricted (SS already allows magwells, even if they are not as wide), and since SS rules are being loosened anyways (new rules allow DOH holsters and the silly "front strap above the top of the belt" high-riding holster is gone), the two divisions are already almost there - for all intents and purposes, the difference is now just "two rounds in major," "race holsters" and "location of magazine pouches." Besides, quite a few guys shoot their .45 1911s in L10 by just using extended magazines. 

 

Merging L10 and SS into one division would make sense. We, the poor saps in states such as CA get our "Commie Limited" division, 1911 purists get a division where they are competitive and Limited guys get a division where they can practice reloading on every move. Win - win. 

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I do not see 1911 dominating if combined with production. It's a less(relatively) reliable platform and a deep water to get into.

Now with Walther's Q5 match steel frame introduced, this is going to be interesting. Had I not started and stuck with 1911, I would probably start with this Walther, and stop worrying all the debates among different brands of 1911.

My opinion is same as before, a division L10minor/L8major, any gun.

 

 

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5 hours ago, quliming said:

I do not see 1911 dominating if combined with production. It's a less(relatively) reliable platform and a deep water to get into.

Now with Walther's Q5 match steel frame introduced, this is going to be interesting. Had I not started and stuck with 1911, I would probably start with this Walther, and stop worrying all the debates among different brands of 1911.

My opinion is same as before, a division L10minor/L8major, any gun.

 

 

About a decade ago, I wrote about a match: Mid  Coast Duel Championship; SS and Production.  Dave S crushed Taran, simply because he had two extra rounds and could take more risk. 

 

A year or so ago, I wrote about a few top shooters using SS minor in an Area match, not because it was faster but the way the stages were designed, the two extra rounds mitigated some of the risk.

 

You can have a $5K SS and a $500 Production gun.  Different platforms.  Both do what they were designed to do.

 

I see no need to combine them.

 

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No 500 dollar gun won Production Nationals.

 

I can design stages that are 8 round friendly and make Production shooters reload just as often as SS.  That's not a challenge at all.

 

In fact, I can make those stages Major friendly and force the Minor shooters take more time to be more accurate. Hoser targets at even 15-20 yards can make a Minor shooter drop a ton of points and use up those extra rounds.

 

Of course putting 8 small poppers in a view is going to allow someone with 10 rounds to be much more aggressive.

 

The 2016 World Shoot was won by a guy shooting major in SS, and the Production guy had just as money in his gun.

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Would a tiered approach work for USPSA matches? 

Example is for level 1 matches all divisions stay current.

                          level 2 matches reduce divisions by one or two.  

                          level 3 matches reduce divisions by two or three

                          

This way the majority won't be affected, most don't go to bigger matches and less shooters get "stung".  As to which divisions get reduced I would think that would be best left up to the match director/jurisdiction where the match is held.  This could be an option too as opposed to being mandatory.                                                         

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I have shot most of the divisions.

Now I am getting back to classic/SS division. Mainly due to I am in Canada and can't use full cap mag....

28-30 rounds mags are fun...... No reload most stages. But not in Canada

 

Classic is the only division that I can use same setup to any country (Not US)

What I see in my area, classic and Open division are both growing.

Bad eyes go to open, slow legs go to classic. Ha ha!

Yes, we are all over 40

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/4/2019 at 1:03 PM, quliming said:

I do not see 1911 dominating if combined with production. It's a less(relatively) reliable platform and a deep water to get into.

.

 

 

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think you may be surprised. I know all clubs are different, but some of the single stack guys local to me seriously bring the heat and typically are top 5 overall, ahead of the production guys. I know it’s not that way everywhere, and that not every club has single stack shooters at all, but just some food for thought.

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Our club has GM's in Single Stack minor and GM's in Production.  Some that shoot both.   The pistol matters just about never where they finish in the combined at the end of the day.  Regardless, there will be some perceived advantage, real or not, so throw in a 2.5lb trigger limit on minorSS-in-PD or something to even it out and see how that goes.

 

FWIW, I shot SS minor at Area matches and Nationals and Worlds.  It was slightly to somewhat of a loser compared to SS Major at all of them.  The speed difference is minimal because you can't afford C's and the few places going to 10 helps doesn't offset points dropped everywhere else, especially with lots of partial or moving targets.  People thought 10-rd SS might do better at Nationals because it was combined with a 10-round division, and it wasn't at PASA but it didn't, especially with so many SHO/WHO classifiers.

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 12:14 PM, IVC said:

Combining SS minor with Production would result in SS race guns dominating the division the same way that 2011s dominate Glocks or SA/DA steel guns in Open. And for all the same reasons. 

 

 

 

I doubt it.

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On 1/19/2019 at 8:06 AM, Rosswoodford said:

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think you may be surprised. I know all clubs are different, but some of the single stack guys local to me seriously bring the heat and typically are top 5 overall, ahead of the production guys. I know it’s not that way everywhere, and that not every club has single stack shooters at all, but just some food for thought.

Id love to get my eyes on some big matches Hit factor results that lists class , division and HF,, seems most results I can find list match points. Which you cant really compare.
Evn better would be from a 10 round state,
My Hypothesis is that L10, Production, SS,  shooters of similar class have similar HF's.

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21 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Id love to get my eyes on some big matches Hit factor results that lists class , division and HF,, seems most results I can find list match points. Which you cant really compare.
Evn better would be from a 10 round state,
My Hypothesis is that L10, Production, SS,  shooters of similar class have similar HF's.

Go look at 2018 Factory Gun Nationals on PractiScore.com

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hey thanks,,, yep now we have a theory..  Among class no pattern of scores between SS and Production... Pretty much negates the argument that combining SS, L10 and SS into a single 10 round minor division would cause any kind of advantage for SA guns. 

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I've been there, lived it.  There is no appreciable overall difference between SS minor and Production (Not sure about L10-- I think the magwell and no weight limit and thumb rests and rackers and 6" & sight-tracker slides could be a bit of a help depending)

 

What there is -- is a perception that there is an advantage, which leads to moaning and complaining from the people that feel they are being disadvantaged and somebody else is getting away with something they are not. 

 

That's why I suggest a trigger pull limit on SS-minor-in-PD (plus the same SS limits we have today)-- not because it will change anything, but should cut down the complaining.

 

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On 1/23/2019 at 12:22 PM, beta1759 said:

there has been a resurgence of Single Stack shooters in the PNW lately. 

ARPC used to have a Single Stack Classic match which I wish would be resurrected. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Two matches today within driving distance.  I shot at one of them.  70 shooters and one shot single stack (the match I shot).  Another had 47 shooters and one shot single stack.  A third match that was 3 hours away had 31 shooters and one shot single stack.   You guys might be on to something!!

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Not sure I get the logic....single stack is supposedly dying...so toss it and a bunch of other garbage into production?

 

What are you accomplishing?

 

If 1 guy shows up and wants to shoot single stack...who cares.  The computer is already set up to handle single stack...let him shoot single stack.

 

You can already shoot single stack in limited 10 also.

Edited by Jeff226
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On 1/22/2019 at 9:02 AM, Joe4d said:

Id love to get my eyes on some big matches Hit factor results that lists class , division and HF,, seems most results I can find list match points. Which you cant really compare.
Evn better would be from a 10 round state,
My Hypothesis is that L10, Production, SS,  shooters of similar class have similar HF's.

 

If you have the practiscore for competitor app you can see pretty much anything you want. It's well worth the . . . whatever it costs. I don't even remember at this point. All I know is that it's way better than whipping up spreadsheets.

 

While these weren't Level 2 or 3 matches, they were specifically setup for a Production and Single-Stack only. The GridIron matches are hosted in CA and the Silver Bullet was in Reno so it pulled a lot of Californians.

 

2016 Silver Bullet (I don't think they ran this match after 2016)

https://practiscore.com/results/new/27744

 

2015 GridIron (Hosted at RRGC with limited space)

https://practiscore.com/results/html/06cee228-7b2e-4363-ba8b-a8b9e7aa6b66

 

2018 GridIron Arena (Hosted at Linden--big hopes that they'll run it again this year with their expanded bays)

https://practiscore.com/results/new/67147

 

As for Level 2 Matches in a "10 round state"

You can also search for "Golden Bullet" in practiscore for what was the defacto state Championship in CA--It's technically the NorCal Section Match. It might have been the only level 2 in CA until 2018 (I started in 2015 so don't quote me on that).

 

The SoCal section held their West Coast Brass Fest in 2018 to bump the number of Level 2's in CA to 2.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/59470?q_division=0

 

The newly formed Central California Section has scheduled 3 Level 2 matches in 2019. I'm thinking of 2 other matches in our section that could be elevated to Level 2 since they're more than just the typical club match.

 

One such match: Gunsta Cup 4

https://practiscore.com/results/new/68894?q_division=0

 

Spoiler alert: not many people choose to shoot Limited 10.

 

I hope that data helps.

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12 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Not sure I get the logic....single stack is supposedly dying...so toss it and a bunch of other garbage into production?

 

What are you accomplishing?

 

If 1 guy shows up and wants to shoot single stack...who cares.  The computer is already set up to handle single stack...let him shoot single stack.

 

You can already shoot single stack in limited 10 also.

Eliminating separating guns with different triggers for no reason. After going over some data.. there is no reason for single stack single action guns to be separate from production, nor to force TDA guns with locked and cocked capability to start hammer down. 

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5 pages of guys saying put SS (where ever)

SS is just fine where it is, if you want to shoot another division go for it.

Revolver guys seem to show up every now and then and seem happy to shoot , wonder where y'all are going to put them.

I'm old enough to remember when we all shot 1911 45's , then somebody showed up with a highpower.

They just shot and enjoyed themselves.

If a larger match doesn't get the folks signing up the MD can close that division and those shooters will have to choose to not go or shoot another division.

 

Just a thought,  leave it alone and stop betting the horse!

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43 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Eliminating separating guns with different triggers for no reason. After going over some data.. there is no reason for single stack single action guns to be separate from production, nor to force TDA guns with locked and cocked capability to start hammer down. 

There is more involved than just triggers.  You can add magwells, disable grip safeties, and have gun weight far heavier than most production guns in single stack...maybe more.

 

 

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which all adds up to nadda  on the score sheet. Go look at some matches... SS guys and production guys of the same class are shooting the same HF's.. 
I can see revolver being seperate division,  or Open with its compensator and optics, or Limited with its 140mm full cap mags.. I mean the equipment makes a pretty big difference. But there is no competitive difference in production and SS. 

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