Is Single Stack Dead?

[rustychev]

I went minor because most stages are 8 8 8 8 and throw in steel and major is less fun

[vgdvc]

I shoot single stack when I go to a dictatorship state like New Jersey for a match. 10 rd max mag cap. Closest I can get to my STI Edge for when I go back to a state that allows you to have normal magazine capacity.  This way I don't have to invest a small fortune in 10 rd STI mags for one sole purpose.

[AF2010]

Well this is a total bummer to hear. I still havent been to a single match, but have been training for the last year with intentions of competing in SS 

So if its dead that just means there wont be any competition or I wont have a class to compete in? 

 

 

 

[HoMiE]

On 11/30/2018 at 7:35 PM, rustychev said:

I went minor because most stages are 8 8 8 8 and throw in steel and major is less fun

8 8 8 8 stage designs are boring and lazy. Design stages that give options and SS is fun to change it up when shooting gets stale or you just want to shoot .45acp. 

[waktasz]

9 minutes ago, AF2010 said:

Well this is a total bummer to hear. I still havent been to a single match, but have been training for the last year with intentions of competing in SS 

So if its dead that just means there wont be any competition or I wont have a class to compete in? 

 

 

 

 

It is just more lightly attended than most of the other divisions. The division isn't going anywhere

[OPENB]

I think there might be only a couple SS shooters left in the SW Ohio area. With the death of the SS Classic, I think the writing is on the wall. 

[RJH]

I think i changed my mind, i shot SS for some time and keep threatening to go back for a little bit, but after shooting limited for a while, everytime i see someone having to make all those reloads i think "that looks like it sucks."   I think I am out for now haha

[mike4045]

SS has it's own match once a month in south Tx. Starting in January. Hope it makes a strong comeback. There will also be a level 2 match for SS. I picked up a 9mm for those stages that lean to 10 rd friendly.

[PatrickDoyle]

Not sure SS could ever really go away...

[SweetToof]

On 12/28/2018 at 3:23 PM, AF2010 said:

Well this is a total bummer to hear. I still havent been to a single match, but have been training for the last year with intentions of competing in SS 

So if its dead that just means there wont be any competition or I wont have a class to compete in? 

 

 

 

IMO comparing scores between SS and Production is totally applicable.

[dsa]

20 hours ago, mike4045 said:

SS has it's own match once a month in south Tx. Starting in January. Hope it makes a strong comeback. There will also be a level 2 match for SS. I picked up a 9mm for those stages that lean to 10 rd friendly.

Where?  What club does this?  I have some friends in the area and I would love to squeeze a SSTK match in next time I visit.

[mike4045]

It is at the Area 59 range in Rosenberg.

[shred]

There are problems with Single Stack that hurt its growth ... (and I'm saying this as a guy that shot Majors, Nationals and a World Shoot in SS).

 

New shooters that show up with a single stack these days mostly don't stick with it, because it's a stock gun in 45 ACP and they are shooting way over-PF factory ammo.

When they go to pick something else, a Production 9mm looks real attractive because they're cheap and easy to shoot and race-ready 9mm single stacks are not cheap or common.

 

When experienced shooters are looking around for another division to shoot, the options are wide open-- CO, PCC, Limited, Production, Open, Revo, L10 & SS.  Not too surprising not very many pick SS since about the only reason to do so  is "I really like 1911s"  or "I'm bored with everything else".

 

Of those that do, they find 8-round major has been an advantage at most recent major matches.  It's usually not a lot (except at the old 1911 Society matches, where it was huge) but by and large, equally-skilled shooters end up better shooting major.

 

But, IMO Major SS isn't much fun for extended practice, and it can be a pain at local matches with SS-unfriendly stage designs.  A heavier widebody Lim gun with the same ammo is much nicer to shoot.  .40 SS's can be finicky and there aren't many off the shelf ready to race these days.  45 ACP is more expensive to load plus has hassles like large and small primer brass. 

 

So, we're left with new shooters looking for something else to shoot, division-shoppers, die-hards that just love 1911s and some people playing minor SS for funsies.

 

How to grow SS from there?  I would fold minor SS into Production.  Yeah, I can hear the complaining already, but look at the scores and compare.  Throw in a minimum trigger pull weight or reduce the magwell if you must, but there's really not any competitive difference between a tuned Tanfo or CZ and a minor SS.  That might decrease participation in SS for a while, but there would be more 1911s on the range.

 

[rowdyb]

As a competitor in Prod mostly who tried to like SS "for funsies" but sold the gun and stuff as it wasn't, I have no problem with SS being folded into Prod.

[RJH]

I have thought they should be lumped together for a long time. Use the same rules that are used now, but allow production guns the option  8 major too, but ain't gonna happen 

[SweetToof]

49 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

As a competitor in Prod mostly who tried to like SS "for funsies" but sold the gun and stuff as it wasn't, I have no problem with SS being folded into Prod.

 

39 minutes ago, RJH said:

I have thought they should be lumped together for a long time. Use the same rules that are used now, but allow production guns the option  8 major too, but ain't gonna happen 

 

I don't see SS 1911's ever having a place in USPSA where they are minor only. And I definitely don't see major scoring ever coming into production. There just is not a division that currently exists where a single stack major 1911 fits, other than it's own division. Since it was the founding pistol which the sport was created with, I don't see it disappearing anytime soon.

[rowdyb]

I'd be fine going straight up head to head with all rules as is, even my 10rnd prod minor set up versus an 8 rnd major ss set up

[bird]

On 1/1/2019 at 5:29 PM, shred said:

There are problems with Single Stack that hurt its growth ... (and I'm saying this as a guy that shot Majors, Nationals and a World Shoot in SS).

 

New shooters that show up with a single stack these days mostly don't stick with it, because it's a stock gun in 45 ACP and they are shooting way over-PF factory ammo.

When they go to pick something else, a Production 9mm looks real attractive because they're cheap and easy to shoot and race-ready 9mm single stacks are not cheap or common.

 

When experienced shooters are looking around for another division to shoot, the options are wide open-- CO, PCC, Limited, Production, Open, Revo, L10 & SS.  Not too surprising not very many pick SS since about the only reason to do so  is "I really like 1911s"  or "I'm bored with everything else".

 

Of those that do, they find 8-round major has been an advantage at most recent major matches.  It's usually not a lot (except at the old 1911 Society matches, where it was huge) but by and large, equally-skilled shooters end up better shooting major.

 

But, IMO Major SS isn't much fun for extended practice, and it can be a pain at local matches with SS-unfriendly stage designs.  A heavier widebody Lim gun with the same ammo is much nicer to shoot.  .40 SS's can be finicky and there aren't many off the shelf ready to race these days.  45 ACP is more expensive to load plus has hassles like large and small primer brass. 

 

So, we're left with new shooters looking for something else to shoot, division-shoppers, die-hards that just love 1911s and some people playing minor SS for funsies.

 

How to grow SS from there?  I would fold minor SS into Production.  Yeah, I can hear the complaining already, but look at the scores and compare.  Throw in a minimum trigger pull weight or reduce the magwell if you must, but there's really not any competitive difference between a tuned Tanfo or CZ and a minor SS.  That might decrease participation in SS for a while, but there would be more 1911s on the range.

 

This is the perfect answer..

I now just keep my life simple & shoot what I carry,  1911 45acp.

I get a laugh when people make fun of my colt 45acp when they are shooting 2011's.

They are bascially the same thing..

 

[SweetToof]

On 1/2/2019 at 4:24 PM, rowdyb said:

I'd be fine going straight up head to head with all rules as is, even my 10rnd prod minor set up versus an 8 rnd major ss set up

 

I agree that they are totally comparable and compete pretty evenly. But it would take a total re-evaluation of production if it could now be shot minor 10 or major 8. Would be odd to let people shoot production major 8, but only with a 1911. If you allowed any gun to be loaded to 8 rounds major, say a USP 45, G21, etc. that would really throw a wrench in things. I don't know if a total revamp of production just to eliminate SS is necessary, or even good for production. 

 

I like SS and production because they are the "fighting guns" divisions. Even though 45 ACP as a defensive caliber and the 1911 itself is being phased out, for good reason, our own military still shoots them and I think it would be odd to not have a spot for them to compete in. I know i may be in the "Timmy" minority on that but that's what first got me into shooting, defensive carry.  

Edited January 4, 2019 by SweetToof

[GrumpyOne]

On 1/2/2019 at 1:24 PM, RJH said:

I have thought they should be lumped together for a long time. Use the same rules that are used now, but allow production guns the option  8 major too, but ain't gonna happen 

I wouldn't like being around a whole bunch of 9mm major Production guns shooting all day. 

[motosapiens]

I think it would be reasonable to just kill singlestack (and I say this as someone who prefers 1911's over all other guns), and them compete in either production (minor scoring only) or Lim10. There's no need to screw with production by introducing major into the mix, but obviously 9mm 1911's will be a disadvantage in L10. maybe call L10 something less lame tho. 'Combat div', 'Badazz div', 'manly men div' ?

 

40-45 1911's compare very favorably to any other 10 round major gun, and 9mm 1911's are pretty much the same as production guns but not quite as reliable (lol).

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I wouldn't like being around a whole bunch of 9mm major Production guns shooting all day. 

ummm, 40 and up just like all non open divisions, well and 357 sig i guess

[rowdyb]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I think it would be reasonable to just kill singlestack (and I say this as someone who prefers 1911's over all other guns), and them compete in either production (minor scoring only) or Lim10. There's no need to screw with production by introducing major into the mix, but obviously 9mm 1911's will be a disadvantage in L10. maybe call L10 something less lame tho. 'Combat div', 'Badazz div', 'manly men div' ?

 

40-45 1911's compare very favorably to any other 10 round major gun, and 9mm 1911's are pretty much the same as production guns but not quite as reliable (lol).

That is the best thing I've read on how to do it. I agree.

[Joe4d]

On 12/30/2018 at 8:54 PM, RJH said:

I think i changed my mind, i shot SS for some time and keep threatening to go back for a little bit, but after shooting limited for a while, everytime i see someone having to make all those reloads i think "that looks like it sucks."   I think I am out for now haha

Yeh after shooting limited for years, I shot a match with a SS,,,   felt like a one legged man at a butt kicking contest.

[Joe4d]

15 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I think it would be reasonable to just kill singlestack (and I say this as someone who prefers 1911's over all other guns), and them compete in either production (minor scoring only) or Lim10. There's no need to screw with production by introducing major into the mix, but obviously 9mm 1911's will be a disadvantage in L10. maybe call L10 something less lame tho. 'Combat div', 'Badazz div', 'manly men div' ?

 

40-45 1911's compare very favorably to any other 10 round major gun, and 9mm 1911's are pretty much the same as production guns but not quite as reliable (lol).

Been saying all along you could merge SS, Production and L10..
Just call it Limited minor. 10 rd max minor scoring. 
Then Limited major would be existing Limited rules,, Major .40 cal plus,, fail major u bump to Open,,, not Lminor.
Then Open major,,, existing Open rules,,, must make major or S F N S.
Open Minor.. No comps, No frame optics.. Basic current CO rules.