Creeping / False Start

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

 

I would consider it a perfect example of a false start.  

 

Ill ask you you the same question. Where in the rules does it state that you can’t stop a shooter after the buzzer goes off?

It doesn’t say that. To me a false start is the shooter thinks he hears the beep and goes to town. You of course stop and restart him even if he is engaging targets. Creeping is jumping the gun so to speak. Trying to anticipate the beep. For some reason I see a clear and distinct difference.

[d_striker]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

It doesn’t say that. To me a false start is the shooter thinks he hears the beep and goes to town. You of course stop and restart him even if he is engaging targets. Creeping is jumping the gun so to speak. Trying to anticipate the beep. For some reason I see a clear and distinct difference.

 

I think most of us have been in this situation where we think we hear the beep or some sort of audible stimulus from the gallery or from the next bay set's us off prior to the beep.  Most of the time when this happens, we attempt to bring our hands back to the correct start position or stop the draw.  

 

Personally, I don't think this is creeping.  Check out pg 6 in the Sep/Oct Front Sight.  And I'm not buying the RO's rationale that he couldn't stop the shooter because the buzzer went off.

 

https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2018-09#page=6

Edited November 16, 2018 by d_striker

[JAFO]

37 minutes ago, d_striker said:

Check out pg 6 in the Sep/Oct Front Sight.  And I'm not buying the RO's rationale that he couldn't stop the shooter because the buzzer went off.

 

https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2018-09#page=6

 

Judging from that article, I would not have been able to assess a creeping procedural to the shooter who kept drifting his hands down after Standby.  OK, I get that.

 

But it also considers a false start when the shooter starts his/her attempt without a start signal being issued by the RO.  Therefore, if they jump the signal at the same time you hit the button on the timer, it's creeping.

From the article:

"That means that the competitor may draw or retrieve their gun, and may sometimes even fire a shot or two without having received the start signal from the Range Officer."

[Racinready300ex]

If you flinch, that's a false start. Doesn't matter if you stop yourself or go with it. You attempted to start, at the wrong time it's a false start.

 

Creeping, would be slowing moving into a more advantageous position to game the start.

 

creep

/krēp/

verb

gerund or present participle: creeping

1. 1.

   move slowly and carefully, especially in order to avoid being heard or noticed.

   "he crept downstairs, hardly making any noise"

   synonyms:

   tiptoe, steal, sneak, slip, slink, sidle, pad, edge, inch; More

[Racinready300ex]

Think about this, if you're driving down the highway and the guy in the next lane puts his foot to the floor do you think "that guy is creeping"?

 

Now if you're rolling down the highway at 75 and come up on a dude going 40. What do you think he's doing?

 

Creeping is not a sudden burst of acceleration.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Sounds like there's no agreement, which of course means that this is NOT being

regulated uniformly.

 

One stage of my one and only Nationals, I reacted just before the buzzer, and

shot the COF without a warning.

 

After I showed clear, the RO told me that he noticed my "creep" but did nothing

about it - I thanked him and that's the last time I saw him, since he was embedded

at that stage.  

 

He probably would have done something if it looked like I knew

how to shoot, and had a chance to come in at a high B level - after watching me

he knew it really didn't matter at all.

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

@Hi-Power Jack which is funny, because that is the textbook definition of false start.

 

As has been mentioned, only slowly sneaking yourself into something like a “less surrender start” or “arms relaxed at sides” qualifies as creeping.

 

90% of issues at the beep are merely false starts. Yell “STOP!” as they clear the holster, and start them over.

 

We’re there specifically to make sure everyone starts in a position which complies with the phrasing on the WSB, no more and no less. Be consistent, and don’t be a dick.

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@Hi-Power Jack which is funny, because that is the textbook definition of false start.

 

As has been mentioned, only slowly sneaking yourself into something like a “less surrender start” or “arms relaxed at sides” qualifies as creeping.

 

90% of issues at the beel are merely false starts. Yell “STOP!” as they clear the holster, and start them over. We’re there to give all the shooters a fair shot at a good run on each stage... not to dick them over.

 

 

Exactly.

 

The typical creeping I see is when people start to lean forward while waiting for the beep. As the RO if you just hold them there for a few seconds they'll loose there balance and have to correct it anyway. If you want to be a dick hit the button then and cut them loose.

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

The creeping rule is there for a reason.  If you gave everyone a restart anytime they move early, there would be no need for the rule.  Also, a false start is defined in the glossary as "Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the "Start signal".  So I wouldn't consider it a false start unless the shooter draws the gun.

 

I"ve seen a number of false starts (where the shooter reacted to an outside influence that wasn't the start signal) when they realized it wasn't the timer AFTER they had moved their hands quickly and sharply, but before they had drawn the gun.  It was obviously a beep from another bay, or an extraneous noise, etc---and obviously they thought it was the start signal but then realized it wasn't before they had completed the draw.

 

I don't want to give the a penalty for that, just because they managed to realize their error quickly.  By that way of thinking, if someone realizes they made a false start, we are REQUIRING them to continue their draw just to make sure they don't get penalized for a completely reasonable mistake.

 

"The draw" is not the beginning of an attempt at a COF.  Heck, by that measure any distance table starts would require you to move to the table and pick up the gun before it could be called a false start.

 

It always seemed to me that "false start" and "creeping" situations are easy to tell apart due to the speed difference.  Creeping is slow---trying to move to a move advantageous position (and out of the correct start position) before the beep.  A false start is obviously---it is fast, and the competitor is going for their gun.

 

It irks me that we'll penalize people for quickly realizing that they started based on an extraneous outside noise.

[d_striker]

1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Sounds like there's no agreement, which of course means that this is NOT being

regulated uniformly.

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly this. 

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

I"ve seen a number of false starts (where the shooter reacted to an outside influence that wasn't the start signal) when they realized it wasn't the timer AFTER they had moved their hands quickly and sharply, but before they had drawn the gun.  It was obviously a beep from another bay, or an extraneous noise, etc---and obviously they thought it was the start signal but then realized it wasn't before they had completed the draw.

 

I don't want to give the a penalty for that, just because they managed to realize their error quickly.  By that way of thinking, if someone realizes they made a false start, we are REQUIRING them to continue their draw just to make sure they don't get penalized for a completely reasonable mistake.

 

"The draw" is not the beginning of an attempt at a COF.  Heck, by that measure any distance table starts would require you to move to the table and pick up the gun before it could be called a false start.

 

It always seemed to me that "false start" and "creeping" situations are easy to tell apart due to the speed difference.  Creeping is slow---trying to move to a move advantageous position (and out of the correct start position) before the beep.  A false start is obviously---it is fast, and the competitor is going for their gun.

 

It irks me that we'll penalize people for quickly realizing that they started based on an extraneous outside noise.

 

I always viewed creeping as slow movement as well (note my example earlier in this thread).  But the common sense definition of creeping isn't jiving with the NROI interpretation in the Front Sight article linked above.  In it, Troy states that what we are discussing as "creeping" - that slow movement between Standby and the buzzer - is simply the shooter moving out of the start position, and they should just be reset to the proper position prior to reissuing the Standby command.  By that reasoning, there is never going to be a creeping penalty, because the slow movement should be noticed by the RO and the shooter not started.  That especially seems true if we are to consider any quick movement towards the gun as a false start and not creeping.

 

Troy's explanation seems to indicate that quick movement towards the gun constitutes creeping, while a false start involves more - moving away from the start position, drawing the gun, even firing on the first target.  I'd be happy to go back to my original interpretation, but it seems out of line with what we're expected to be doing.

[MemphisMechanic]

@JAFO my mistake. I didn’t realize we were taking about Troy’s convoluted interpretation. I thought we were talking about a common sense interpretation of the obvious meanings of the rulebook’s terms “creeping” and “false start.”

 

I think a shooter delibrately and obviously crawling toward the gun in hopes that match officials won’t notice... Absolutely deserves a penalty.

 

A shooter in the proper starting position reacting to (what sounded like) a start signal, does not.

 

But there I go with the common sense again.

[d_striker]

I still stand by getting rid of creeping altogether.  Treat it like track and field racing. One false start and it’s a restart. If you have another one on the same stage you’re not racing. Zero the stage and done. 

[RJH]

33 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@JAFO my mistake. I didn’t realize we were taking about Troy’s convoluted interpretation. I thought we were talking about a common sense interpretation of the obvious meanings of the rulebook’s terms “creeping” and “false start.”

 

I think a shooter delibrately and obviously crawling toward the gun in hopes that match officials won’t notice... Absolutely deserves a penalty.

 

A shooter in the proper starting position reacting to (what sounded like) a start signal, does not.

 

But there I go with the common sense again.

 

 

Troy and common sense/terminology don't seem to go hand in hand.....

 

I think creeping penalties should be thrown out.  If a shooter gets out of the start position early enough tell them to get back in it, if they creep/false start at the last second, restart them.  I have done quite  a bit of ROing and i don't think i have ever seen someone try to cheat by creeping towards the gun, i have seen many people try to jump/anticipate the timer, and i just waited till they were back into the correct start position and started them.  This penalty always seemed goofy to me, as it happens before the course of fire

[pskys2]

I'd rather stop the shooter if I see it.  Never set timer to random and I've never been surprised.  The worst is the "Lean" movement, sometimes I just have to laugh when "I" do it.

 

Though, recently I've started my draw and I swear I then heard the timer and was not stopped, nor given a penalty.  It was so close I can't say if I heard the button be pushed??? heard the first tone, something else triggered me or just jumped.  My hearing "is" compromised and I wear Electronics turned up all the way.  Each time I aggressively finished my draw and thought nothing of it.  If I had been stopped or given a penalty I wouldn't have complained, probably just laughed.

I'll have to ask the RO's, experienced, who've been there when I did it and see if they were surprised or not.

I train hard to hear that first note of the buzzer and start moving so I may have sub consciously heard it and since I try to shoot in that frame of mind? Who Knows?

[Poppa Bear]

Standby – This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds.

 

This is why it is best to not use random, but to instead plan your beep for a defined period of time at the start of each shooter.  I might decide to go on 2 for this one and 3 for this one and 2.5 for this one.  In other words I set a time in my mind and as I approach it I start to press the button.  This way your timing cannot be planned for by the shooter “He always beeps 2 seconds after Stand By so I will count myself and start as he is hitting the button”.  Now I am free to watch their hands and the beep can be stopped if they try to jump the gun.

 

In most cases there is a brief delay as they react to the beep, in rare cases they are moving just as the beep goes off.  If they do jump it we just reset and start the commands again.

 

[Thomas H]

On 11/16/2018 at 6:30 PM, JAFO said:

Troy's explanation seems to indicate that quick movement towards the gun constitutes creeping, while a false start involves more - moving away from the start position, drawing the gun, even firing on the first target.  I'd be happy to go back to my original interpretation, but it seems out of line with what we're expected to be doing.

 

I agree---and that's one of the reasons I don't like the way the current rule (and interpretation) is written. 

 

I know that in the past, I've seen someone start a slow creep right as I was letting go of the button on the timer (PACT, release activation), so it was a creeping penalty since I couldn't stop the beep in time.  MOST of the time, though, I agree---creeping penalties should never occur because we should simply wait until they made it back to the start position, and go with "Are You Ready" again. 

 

The "false start" definition, currently, irks me greatly.

[Thomas H]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:22 PM, RJH said:

I have done quite  a bit of ROing and i don't think i have ever seen someone try to cheat by creeping towards the gun....

 

Oh, I've seen it quite a bit, both at Level I and Level IIs.  (Hm.  I've seen it at a level IIIs, also.)  Especially on surrender position starts.

 

Example of when a creeping penalty DIDN'T happen, but only because the RO was calm throughout:  Guy starts in his version of surrender position, and his hands aren't high enough.  RO waits a moment, then tells him the hands need to be higher.  Shooter complies, then slowly starts lowering his hands back down again while waiting for the beep.  RO waits, says again "raise your hands, wrists above shoulders," the shooter turns around and complains "they WERE" and the RO says "they were until you lowered them again, so raise them up again."  Shooter complies, the RO says "Are You Ready?" and gets ready to give the start signal, and the competitor again starts lowering his hands.  The RO simply waits and doesn't give the start signal.  The shooter waits, then angrily says "Are you gonna start me or what?" and the RO says calmly "when you are in the start position with your wrists above your shoulders."  The shooter visibly stops himself from yelling, puts up his hands much higher than needed (probably thinking he was making a sarcastic point, instead of actually making a statement to those watching as to what kind of person he was), the RO went on with Are You Ready? and then the start signal happened.

 

I've seen creeping happen any number of times.  Almost every time, the RO just waits for the shooter to fix himself, (or fall over from leaning, that's always funny), and then the commands and course of fire continues.  I think the creeping penalty SHOULD stay in there, because someone who is trying to cheat the start position SHOULD get a penalty if they start the course of fire that way.  I don't think that should be a re-shoot, I think it should be a penalty, since they were literally trying to cheat the start position.

 

To me, though, that's a completely separate thing from a false start.  I've seen all too many false starts from extraneous outside noises, including timer signals from separate bays.  I think that false starts (an actual quick start to the course of fire, though "drawing" isn't the start of a course of fire so I don't think that should be the deciding point) should be re-shoots every time, and not penalties.  (Unless there is a known set of times where a competitor has attempted to jump the signal, and cheat the timer, which is a different penalty anyway.)  I don't think there should be a false start penalty at all. 

But that's me. 

[d_striker]

On 11/19/2018 at 12:08 PM, Thomas H said:

 

  I think that false starts (an actual quick start to the course of fire, though "drawing" isn't the start of a course of fire so I don't think that should be the deciding point) 

 

What should be the defining action of an attempt to start the COF if not the draw? 

[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

What should be the defining action of an attempt to start the COF if not the draw? 

 

Rather depends on what people have to do at the start of the course.  (Pull a rope, open a door, take three steps, pick up a magazine from a table, pick up a gun from a table, etc...)

 

Here's my question:  If I quickly go for my gun, get a grip on it, and draw it from the holster, you are saying that I have started the course of fire, yes?

So if I quickly go for my gun, then suddenly stop before I get the gun out of the holster (so I haven't "drawn"), I have still obviously attempted to start the course of fire, yes?

 

If someone moves quickly beginning the initial movement of the stage, then they are attempting to start the course of fire.  If the timer hasn't gone off, that is a false start.  It isn't a case of someone attempting to get into a better position from which to start the stage---they are starting the stage.

 

Penalizing someone who quickly realizes (before they finish the draw) that they responded to an extraneous sound that they thought was the start signal, irks me.  Especially compared to if they were clueless and completed the draw and thus were not penalized.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Thomas H
emphasized a point in bold

[tacomandood]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:37 AM, Poppa Bear said:

Standby – This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds.

 

This is why it is best to not use random, but to instead plan your beep for a defined period of time at the start of each shooter.  I might decide to go on 2 for this one and 3 for this one and 2.5 for this one.  In other words I set a time in my mind and as I approach it I start to press the button.  This way your timing cannot be planned for by the shooter “He always beeps 2 seconds after Stand By so I will count myself and start as he is hitting the button”.  Now I am free to watch their hands and the beep can be stopped if they try to jump the gun.

 

In most cases there is a brief delay as they react to the beep, in rare cases they are moving just as the beep goes off.  If they do jump it we just reset and start the commands again.

 

The PACT timers have a built in delay that will start anywhere from 1-4 seconds after you press the start. I don't know if the Pocket Pros have that, but I do see them being used more often.

 

Regardless, would you agree that maybe using that timer-randomized start time for everyone would be a good way of ensuring competitor equity? I get where as an RO you can "plan" the start at a set time, but the fact is that people subconsciously create patterns without realizing it and especially when trying to randomize. Now, I doubt any shooter is out there hyper-analyzing this to find out when their beep is gonna be,  but using a timer with a built-in randomized delay almost completely eliminates another variable. In turn, maybe people would be less likely to "creep" before the start signal goes off.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, tacomandood said:

The PACT timers have a built in delay that will start anywhere from 1-4 seconds after you press the start. I don't know if the Pocket Pros have that, but I do see them being used more often.

 

Regardless, would you agree that maybe using that timer-randomized start time for everyone would be a good way of ensuring competitor equity? I get where as an RO you can "plan" the start at a set time, but the fact is that people subconsciously create patterns without realizing it and especially when trying to randomize. Now, I doubt any shooter is out there hyper-analyzing this to find out when their beep is gonna be,  but using a timer with a built-in randomized delay almost completely eliminates another variable. In turn, maybe people would be less likely to "creep" before the start signal goes off.

DO NOT, use random start timer. The RO needs total control over when the beep goes. The best example is, the RO gives standby and sees somebody walk up on a berm. Before he can call stop the beeper goes off and the shooter starts shooting. Simple example but I think it gets the point across. 

[d_striker]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Rather depends on what people have to do at the start of the course.  (Pull a rope, open a door, take three steps, pick up a magazine from a table, pick up a gun from a table, etc...)

 

Here's my question:  If I quickly go for my gun, get a grip on it, and draw it from the holster, you are saying that I have started the course of fire, yes?

So if I quickly go for my gun, then suddenly stop before I get the gun out of the holster (so I haven't "drawn"), I have still obviously attempted to start the course of fire, yes?

 

If someone moves quickly beginning the initial movement of the stage, then they are attempting to start the course of fire.  If the timer hasn't gone off, that is a false start.  It isn't a case of someone attempting to get into a better position from which to start the stage---they are starting the stage.

 

Penalizing someone who quickly realizes (before they finish the draw) that they responded to an extraneous sound that they thought was the start signal, irks me.  Especially compared to if they were clueless and completed the draw and thus were not penalized.

 

I think we're on the same page.  But to answer your question, I would consider any quick movement with either the hands (draw stoke) or feet (taking a step) to be an attempt to begin a COF.  I also consider both of those actions to be a false start if performed before the beep.  

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by d_striker

[tacomandood]

DO NOT, use random start timer. The RO needs total control over when the beep goes. The best example is, the RO gives standby and sees somebody walk up on a berm. Before he can call stop the beeper goes off and the shooter starts shooting. Simple example but I think it gets the point across. 

Makes sense. I’d imagine the RO would yell “Stop/cease fire” in such a case anyway, but it does make sense that they need complete control of the start signal. On the Pact timer I know you can’t stop the countdown once it starts, unless you’re fast enough to turn it off before then. Maybe a feature that could be added in to later models?

I don’t know, I’m not an RO and pretty new for the sport, just figured I’d add my 2 cents.

[Jim Watson]

At the local unaffiliated USPSAish club, if they hand me the timer and I get a persistent creeper, I don't PE, I just give him the full four second delay and watch him topple over. 

I don't work real matches where I would be expected to know and enforce every jot and tittle.