Creeping / False Start

[d_striker]

A shooter on my squad at a recent Level 3 match was assessed a Creeping procedural.  He was originally in the correct start position, flinched his hands up but then returned them down, and then the timer went off.  I am not certain if his hands returned to the correct original start position before the actual beep or not.

 

The RO stated that since the buzzer went off, he was not able to stop the competitor and it was a creeping procedural.  The RM backed up the RO's call on this.

 

After the "Standby" command is given, I am super keyed in on any audible stimulus.  Often, a gun shot or steel ringing on the next berm over will make me flinch in the same manner outlined above.  IMO, I believe the part of the rule that states "prior to the issuance of the start signal" is simply referring to any attempt or movement prior to the start signal and DOES NOT mean the RO is not able to stop the competitor after the start signal.  I believe the competitor should have been stopped and restarted under a false start.

 

 

8.3.4.1  In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

 

ETA:

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by d_striker

[Rnlinebacker]

A shooter on my squad at a recent Level 3 match was assessed a Creeping procedural.  He was originally in the correct start position, flinched his hands up but then returned them down, and then the timer went off.  I am not certain if his hands returned to the correct original start position before the actual beep or not.
 
The RO stated that since the buzzer went off, he was not able to stop the competitor and it was a creeping procedural.  The RM backed up the RO's call on this.
 
After the "Standby" command is given, I am super keyed in on any audible stimulus.  Often, a gun shot or steel ringing on the next berm over will make me flinch in the same manner outlined above.  IMO, I believe the part of the rule that states "prior to the issuance of the start signal" is simply referring to any attempt or movement prior to the start signal and DOES NOT mean the RO is not able to stop the competitor after the start signal.  I believe the competitor should have been stopped and restarted under a false start.
 
 
8.3.4.1  In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.
 
 
 

agreed

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[JAFO]

The rule you quoted isn't the rule that was used to assess the procedural, though.  Rule 10.2.6 simply states "moving...at the start signal...".  While I agree it would have been better for the RO to notice and not hit the buzzer, creeping and a false start are two different things.  Since the shooter didn't draw, it's not a false start.

 

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.

Edited November 15, 2018 by JAFO

[d_striker]

4 minutes ago, JAFO said:

The rule you quoted isn't the rule that was used to assess the procedural, though.  Rule 10.2.6 simply states "moving...at the start signal...".

 

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.

 

Yeah, I just thought that as you replied and was adding it to the OP.  They did use part of 8.3.4.1 to make the determination that they were not able to stop the shooter since the timer went off, though.

 

Is your opinion on this that the RO/RM were correct in their ruling?

Edited November 15, 2018 by d_striker

[JAFO]

If the RO felt he was pushing the button at the same time as the competitor started moving towards the gun, then yes.

 

If the RO saw the movement, waited for him to move back, and then started the shooter and assessed the procedural, I would not have agreed with that.

[ktm300]

<<The RO stated that since the buzzer went off, he was not able to stop the competitor and it was a creeping procedural.  The RM backed up the RO's call on this.>>

Who was the RM?  One of the NROI guys?  Was he a range master?

 

The RO should not start the shooter if they are not in the correct position.  As an RO I can stop the shooter for going too early.    

 

Just stop the shooter and let him get set again. 

[d_striker]

Just now, ktm300 said:

<<The RO stated that since the buzzer went off, he was not able to stop the competitor and it was a creeping procedural.  The RM backed up the RO's call on this.>>

Who was the RM?  One of the NROI guys?  Was he a range master?

 

The RO should not start the shooter if they are not in the correct position.  As an RO I can stop the shooter for going too early.    

 

Just stop the shooter and let him get set again. 

 

 

I don't know the names and even if I did, I wouldn't post them on here.  

[ktm300]

2 minutes ago, d_striker said:

 

 

I don't know the names and even if I did, I wouldn't post them on here.  

Correct, no need for a name, let me rephrase it 

Was the RM an NROI guy, a range master, or a CRO/RO doing the job?

 

My point is the RO is responsible to have the shooter in the correct position before he pushes the button.  If the RO makes a mistake he can stop the shooter and start over.

Edited November 15, 2018 by ktm300
Adding to the post

[davsco]

if he returned to a legal start position before the buzzer buzzed, isn't that no harm no foul?

[d_striker]

1 minute ago, ktm300 said:

Correct, no need for a name, let me rephrase it 

Was the RM an NROI guy, a range master, or a CRO/RO doing the job?

 

I don't what the credentials of the guy running the timer were.  I don't know if he was the designated CRO for the stage or not.  I also don't know if the RM that arrived was an NROI guy.  

[d_striker]

It seems to me that no matter how many clarifications come out (Front Sight Sep/Oct 2018), there is still a lot of subjectivity to how these related rules are interpreted.  

 

It seems to me the easiest way to handle it is to just get rid of creeping and treat everything as a false start.  Stop the shooter because they are in the incorrect start position and restart them.

[MikeBurgess]

the guidance on this at both my RO and CRO classes has been if the shooter moves and you can stop them even if you've hit the button then stop them and get them in the correct position and start the commands over. The rules is there and can be enforced but there is no reason to use it unless the shooter is obviously trying to game the start.

 

I flinched just before the beep at Nationals, don know what I heard but something made me go, I realized it wasn't the beep and started to stop my movement just as the beep sounded, the RO instantly said stop and we reset and started over at are you ready. I believe the RO on the stage is a RMI.

 

 

[d_striker]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

the guidance on this at both my RO and CRO classes has been if the shooter moves and you can stop them even if you've hit the button then stop them and get them in the correct position and start the commands over. The rules is there and can be enforced but there is no reason to use it unless the shooter is obviously trying to game the start.

 

I flinched just before the beep at Nationals, don know what I heard but something made me go, I realized it wasn't the beep and started to stop my movement just as the beep sounded, the RO instantly said stop and we reset and started over at are you ready. I believe the RO on the stage is a RMI.

 

 

 

Personally, I believe that is the correct way to handle it.  

 

We have all been there on thinking we heard the beep or some other audible stimulus making us flinch.  I would say 99.9% of the time, it is accidental and not someone trying to game the start.

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, d_striker said:

 

Personally, I believe that is the correct way to handle it.  

 

We have all been there on thinking we heard the beep or some other audible stimulus making us flinch.  I would say 99.9% of the time, it is accidental and not someone trying to game the start.

I think this all comes down to troys Don't be a D%^&  advice

[Gary Stevens]

Sounds like the timer might have been set to random, and not instant, but who knows.

[ktm300]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think this all comes down to troys Don't be a D%^&  advice

Best RO advice ever.

[davsco]

48 minutes ago, ktm300 said:

Best RO advice ever.

not a real religious guy, but if more followed the golden rule, we'd be in a much better place.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, davsco said:

not a real religious guy, but if more followed the golden rule, we'd be in a much better place.

Well, hmm... This is a game. There are rules. They should be followed. They should be clear enough to easily enforce. There is no golden rule in the rulebook . The key reason for not allowing every RO in the organization to interpret actions and rules as they like is to ensure competitive equity. It weakens the sport and NROI when I give a guy a pass for creeping and the next stage dings another shooter for the exact same thing. If I put myself in the position of the shooter who gets dinged when you didn’t then I’m instantly pissed and thinking the RO is an incompetent ass.

[Sandbagger123]

i gave a creeping procedural to a shooter once. it was one of those perfect timing things.  milliseconds before i pressed the button he moved his hand to draw.  the target was so close that before i could if i were to stop him he had started shooting.  

 

After the match while eating we reviewed some vid of the said offense.   after many reviews at many speeds he agreed that he did jump the beep.   if i had time to stop him before he started shooting then i might have just restarted him, but it happened so fast.  its one of those very odd perfect timing things 

[d_striker]

22 minutes ago, Sandbagger123 said:

i gave a creeping procedural to a shooter once. it was one of those perfect timing things.  milliseconds before i pressed the button he moved his hand to draw.  the target was so close that before i could if i were to stop him he had started shooting.  

 

After the match while eating we reviewed some vid of the said offense.   after many reviews at many speeds he agreed that he did jump the beep.   if i had time to stop him before he started shooting then i might have just restarted him, but it happened so fast.  its one of those very odd perfect timing things 

 

What prevents you from stopping him “as soon as possible” even if that means after the buzzer or even after shots are fired on a close target?

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

What prevents you from stopping him “as soon as possible” even if that means after the buzzer or even after shots are fired on a close target?

Because that’s a perfect example of creeping, NOT false starting. Every question asked about rules typically depends on circumstances from case to case. There comes a point when the mind says, “push the button” before you actually push the button. During that short period of time you can’t “not push the button” and if the shooter moves towards the gun during that time it’s going to be a creeping call.

[davsco]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

Well, hmm... This is a game. There are rules. They should be followed. They should be clear enough to easily enforce. There is no golden rule in the rulebook . The key reason for not allowing every RO in the organization to interpret actions and rules as they like is to ensure competitive equity. It weakens the sport and NROI when I give a guy a pass for creeping and the next stage dings another shooter for the exact same thing. If I put myself in the position of the shooter who gets dinged when you didn’t then I’m instantly pissed and thinking the RO is an incompetent ass.

i agree with you and wasn't suggesting to give everyone or anyone a pass and ignore the rules. 

[d_striker]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

Because that’s a perfect example of creeping, NOT false starting. Every question asked about rules typically depends on circumstances from case to case. There comes a point when the mind says, “push the button” before you actually push the button. During that short period of time you can’t “not push the button” and if the shooter moves towards the gun during that time it’s going to be a creeping call.

 

I would consider it a perfect example of a false start.  

 

Ill ask you you the same question. Where in the rules does it state that you can’t stop a shooter after the buzzer goes off?

Edited November 16, 2018 by d_striker

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

 

I would consider it a perfect example of a false start.  

 

Ill ask you you the same question. Where in the rules does it state that you can’t stop a shooter after the buzzer goes off?

 

The creeping rule is there for a reason.  If you gave everyone a restart anytime they move early, there would be no need for the rule.  Also, a false start is defined in the glossary as "Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the "Start signal".  So I wouldn't consider it a false start unless the shooter draws the gun.

 

The only time I almost gave a creeping procedural was to a shooter who kept drifting their hands downward from a surrender start after Standby.  I warned him once, had him reset his hands and gave AYR/Standby again.  When he started drifting down again I gave him a second warning and told him he'd get a procedural if he did it again.  Technically, I could have given him the procedural the first time, but I wanted to make sure he knew he was doing it.

[d_striker]

3 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

The creeping rule is there for a reason.  If you gave everyone a restart anytime they move early, there would be no need for the rule.  Also, a false start is defined in the glossary as "Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the "Start signal".  So I wouldn't consider it a false start unless the shooter draws the gun.

 

The only time I almost gave a creeping procedural was to a shooter who kept drifting their hands downward from a surrender start after Standby.  I warned him once, had him reset his hands and gave AYR/Standby again.  When he started drifting down again I gave him a second warning and told him he'd get a procedural if he did it again.  Technically, I could have given him the procedural the first time, but I wanted to make sure he knew he was doing it.

 

I don't think you're wrong.  All I'm saying is that I think there's a bit of subjectivity which is not a great way to enforce rules.

 

I would consider attempting to draw the gun as "beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the start signal.