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Stages getting Thrown Out at Major Matches..... Lets fix this problem

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It was a first one for me to see an RO who not only did not have an overlay (which sometimes happens) but flat out said he wouldnt use it at the initial request of the shooter...  Several folks on the squad shook their heads.  To be fair, from what i understand, the issue has been handled well and in a professional manner - it was constructively discussed with the RM and with other ROs, lessons were extracted and i think everyone learned something.  And i think that's the important part - always be willing to learn and improve. I understand that 99% of membership will never know all the rules... I would rather see even the best and most knowledgeable of us refer to the rulebook instead of quoting a rule from memory.  It's not the lack of knowledge that will hurt us more - that can be easily fixed... It's the inflexibility and unwillingness to change one's approach that makes you not want to shake their hand at the end of the stage.  Luckily, that hasnt been the case here.  Or ever really in my relatively short experience as a USPSA competitor and RO.

Edited by nasty618

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23 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

 

No, it just said 

 

So when the RO's shot the stage and this guy wasn't present to make them all start his way what happened?  I don't know but I'm guessing they followed the WSB.  I'd like the same opportunity.

 

Yes, I can see where that would be a PIA.  The stage I worked, the start position was the same for everyone--at least that was our goal.  We would not start the shooter until they complied.  

 

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On 11/27/2018 at 11:41 AM, pjb45 said:

 

Yes, I can see where that would be a PIA.  The stage I worked, the start position was the same for everyone--at least that was our goal.  We would not start the shooter until they complied.  

 

The stage I am talking about, the RO's I spoke with did not start the same way as our squad. 

Edited by echotango

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8 minutes ago, echotango said:

The stage I am talking about, the RO's I spoke with did not start the same way as our squad. 

That’s one of the pitfalls of “staff day”. RO’s generally travel with squads and shoot. Start positions can vary wildly. This is why RM needs to do staff walk through before shooting starts.

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I think that is why we should get rid of defaults and just use  basic phrases unless the WSB is going to get real specific for a start position.

 

1.     Heels/Toes touching ________________

2.     Palms touching ________________

3.      Both feet IN/OUT of ______________

4.      Sitting on __________________

 

Leave everything else up to freestyle so that the shooter can twist or turn their body anyway they want.  They can hold their hands anywhere they want as long as it is not touching the gun (except PCC)  or mags.  The ultra gamers will start in such off balance positions to save a split second that they will lose that split second trying to keep their balance as they start to move out of position.😀

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I have lost count of how many times I have attended a major match, gotten there a day early to check out the stages and watched the Staff Schedule use slightly different start positions than the main schedule. Then a few stage RO's on the main schedule mandate strict adherence to a specific start position and claim that it has been the same for everyone. I don't understand how those guys can conveniently forget that shooters have been run through their stage long before they took it over for the main match.

 

There are a couple of good solutions for this. First, make the start position as generic as possible like Poppa Bear above states. Let the shooters do whatever they want beyond the minimal instructions. Second, have the RM stand in the proper start position for each stage then take a picture of them. Then use that picture as a reference when defining or enforcing the start position.   

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^^ excellent suggestions. I don't get too bent out of shape about the minutia of start positions, but is pretty normal to see the main match be stricter and slightly different than the staff match. Most recently I observed this on several stages at A2.

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8 hours ago, Poppa Bear said:

I think that is why we should get rid of defaults and just use  basic phrases unless the WSB is going to get real specific for a start position.

 

1.     Heels/Toes touching ________________

2.     Palms touching ________________

3.      Both feet IN/OUT of ______________

4.      Sitting on __________________

 

Leave everything else up to freestyle so that the shooter can twist or turn their body anyway they want.  They can hold their hands anywhere they want as long as it is not touching the gun (except PCC)  or mags.  The ultra gamers will start in such off balance positions to save a split second that they will lose that split second trying to keep their balance as they start to move out of position.😀

 

I like this. I also like more open ended start positions. 

 

At area 5, there were a bunch of stages that had a big blue mark and it was “feet touching mark, hands below belt”. I loved it- and I didn’t even really take the hand placement.

 

I’m also a big fan of “standing anywhere in the shooting area, facing wherever you want (except pcc - has to be pointed in any safe direction), hands below belt (or relaxed at sides)”. Being able to start anywhere leads to interesting stage planning opportunities. 

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17 hours ago, DKorn said:

I’m also a big fan of “standing anywhere in the shooting area, facing wherever you want (except pcc - has to be pointed in any safe direction), hands below belt (or relaxed at sides)”. Being able to start anywhere leads to interesting stage planning opportunities. 

I like those, too, and often don't even include the "within the shooting area" condition.  Except for rare stages where mags, guns, props, or activators are located outside the shooting area and the intention is to make shooters "run errands" during the stage (not a bad concept, but not something you see on more than about 2% of stages), it will almost never make sense to start outside the shooting area.  

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5 hours ago, ATLDave said:

I like those, too, and often don't even include the "within the shooting area" condition.  Except for rare stages where mags, guns, props, or activators are located outside the shooting area and the intention is to make shooters "run errands" during the stage (not a bad concept, but not something you see on more than about 2% of stages), it will almost never make sense to start outside the shooting area.  

 

It could also be interesting to do “Standing with both feet anywhere outside the  shooting area.”

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...I’m also a big fan of “standing anywhere in the shooting area, facing wherever you want (except pcc - has to be pointed in any safe direction), hands below belt (or relaxed at sides)”. Being able to start anywhere leads to interesting stage planning opportunities. 


Not having a designated start area can add a few seconds to the cycle time of the stage.

This only really matters at larger matches, but if you have 300 shooters, taking an additional 10 seconds to chase each shooter to their chosen start point will add 50 minutes to the total run time on that stage. That's potentally enough to back that stage up a whole squad. A designated start position avoids this.

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1 hour ago, PatJones said:


 

 


Not having a designated start area can add a few seconds to the cycle time of the stage.

This only really matters at larger matches, but if you have 300 shooters, taking an additional 10 seconds to chase each shooter to their chosen start point will add 50 minutes to the total run time on that stage. That's potentally enough to back that stage up a whole squad. A designated start position avoids this.

 

 

Definitely a good point to account for in your overall match planning. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it, but you probably need to treat the stage as longer than it actually would otherwise take when you balance out the length of all your stages. 

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3 hours ago, PatJones said:


 

 


Not having a designated start area can add a few seconds to the cycle time of the stage.

This only really matters at larger matches, but if you have 300 shooters, taking an additional 10 seconds to chase each shooter to their chosen start point will add 50 minutes to the total run time on that stage. That's potentally enough to back that stage up a whole squad. A designated start position avoids this.

 

 

In my experience, at local matches and level 2-3 matches, it has made zero difference in the stage time. Every shooter knows before he steps up where he wants to start, and you just go there. The biggest time-waster at matches is people who are just dicking around instead of moving with a purpose. (this goes for RO's and shooters both).

Edited by motosapiens

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On 11/29/2018 at 9:39 AM, motosapiens said:

^^ excellent suggestions. I don't get too bent out of shape about the minutia of start positions, but is pretty normal to see the main match be stricter and slightly different than the staff match. Most recently I observed this on several stages at A2.

 

Yeah...There were a lot of stages at A2 that listed "regular start position" in the WSB.  There was a bit of variation from stage to stage about what "regular start position" meant.

 

One RO even stated that "regular start position" was defined in the rule book. 

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On 11/30/2018 at 10:55 PM, d_striker said:

 

Yeah...There were a lot of stages at A2 that listed "regular start position" in the WSB.  There was a bit of variation from stage to stage about what "regular start position" meant.

 

One RO even stated that "regular start position" was defined in the rule book. 

Regular is defined in the rulebook as is facing up/down range.  At Area 2 the WSB  defined the start position. The WSB start varied according the designer of each stage.  There is no need or requirement that all WSBs have the same start position.  I believe that stage 5 or 6 WSB said facing downrange.  

 

I know that many shooters did not know the definition of facing down range.  I know one set of 3RO/1CRO reiterated the definition and demonstrated it at each squad briefing.  Still some were non-compliant and the stage would not begin until the shooter complied as stated in the rule book.

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15 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Regular is defined in the rulebook as is facing up/down range.  At Area 2 the WSB  defined the start position. The WSB start varied according the designer of each stage.  There is no need or requirement that all WSBs have the same start position.  I believe that stage 5 or 6 WSB said facing downrange.  

 

I know that many shooters did not know the definition of facing down range.  I know one set of 3RO/1CRO reiterated the definition and demonstrated it at each squad briefing.  Still some were non-compliant and the stage would not begin until the shooter complied as stated in the rule book.

 

Is it?  I simply hit ctrl-f and searched for "regular."  I did not see anything defined as "regular" start position.

 

I hope I didn't imply that every stage needs to have the same start position.  That would be stupid.  My observation was simply that multiple stages that simply used "regular start position" were being enforced differently depending on the stage RO's.  Some defined it as facing downrange, while some did not.

 

 

Edited by d_striker

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5 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

Is it?  I simply hit ctrl-f and searched for "regular."  I did not see anything defined as "regular" start position.

 

I hope I didn't imply that every stage needs to have the same start position.  That would be stupid.  My observation was simply that multiple stages that simply used "regular start position" were being enforced differently depending on the stage RO's.  Some defined it as facing downrange, while some did not.

 

 

 

8.2.2 defines a start position for a stage if a start position isn’t specified. Honestly it’s a rule that usually causes more confusion than it solves. 

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3 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

8.2.2 defines a start position for a stage if a start position isn’t specified. Honestly it’s a rule that usually causes more confusion than it solves. 

 

Nowhere in 8.2.2 does it refer to this as "regular" start position.  

 

The stages that I'm referring to at A2 did have a specified start position....It was listed as "regular start position."  Reaching and assuming that this means 8.2.2 is not explicit which is what start positions should be.

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On 12/4/2018 at 8:33 PM, pjb45 said:

Regular is defined in the rulebook as is facing up/down range.  At Area 2 the WSB  defined the start position. The WSB start varied according the designer of each stage.  There is no need or requirement that all WSBs have the same start position.  I believe that stage 5 or 6 WSB said facing downrange.  

 

I know that many shooters did not know the definition of facing down range.  I know one set of 3RO/1CRO reiterated the definition and demonstrated it at each squad briefing.  Still some were non-compliant and the stage would not begin until the shooter complied as stated in the rule book.

Ok, I swear I was not drinking when I read it. And like you I cannot find the source.  My bad.  Sorry. 

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12 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

Nowhere in 8.2.2 does it refer to this as "regular" start position.  

 

The stages that I'm referring to at A2 did have a specified start position....It was listed as "regular start position."  Reaching and assuming that this means 8.2.2 is not explicit which is what start positions should be.

 

I agree completely that saying “regular start position” is a terrible WSB. So is “default start position”. 

 

I also think having a default start position is bad in the first place and only creates confusion. If you’re writing a WSB, you should include all the details of how you want the start position, and only leave something unstated if you want to leave it open-ended. If you’re running a stage, you shouldn’t have to worry about interpreting how much of the “default start position” from 8.2.2 applies. You should just be able to enforce what’s in the WSB and ignore pretty much everything else. Unfortunately, the rules don’t support that right now. 

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2 hours ago, DKorn said:

You should just be able to enforce what’s in the WSB and ignore pretty much everything else.

 

That would be so much simpler.

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Make some plywood footprint cutouts and use them on every stage, hands at sides for whole match. 

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43 minutes ago, Hello said:

Make some plywood footprint cutouts and use them on every stage, hands at sides for whole match. 

why? Why is it so important to control this aspect of the stage? why not just give minimum directions, and let shooters do freestyle? 'toes touching x's, wrists below belt' . or 'hands touching x's'.    Really, nothing else is required. The problem comes when when get more specific and people have different understandings of what 'hands at sides' or 'facing downrange' mean.

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36 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

why? Why is it so important to control this aspect of the stage? why not just give minimum directions, and let shooters do freestyle? 'toes touching x's, wrists below belt' . or 'hands touching x's'.    Really, nothing else is required. The problem comes when when get more specific and people have different understandings of what 'hands at sides' or 'facing downrange' mean.

 

Exactly. It's in the WSB or it is not. If not, it is then up to the shooter.

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13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

why? Why is it so important to control this aspect of the stage? why not just give minimum directions, and let shooters do freestyle? 'toes touching x's, wrists below belt' . or 'hands touching x's'.    Really, nothing else is required. The problem comes when when get more specific and people have different understandings of what 'hands at sides' or 'facing downrange' mean.

 

13 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Exactly. It's in the WSB or it is not. If not, it is then up to the shooter.

 

I agree,  if you feel the need to do more to control the shooter you are the problem that needs solving.

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