Virginia stage penalty question

[a matt]

I just looked at the PractiScore app and 1 penalty on that stage worked out to cost 36.95sec, no wonder the RO didn’t care to score things right. ZERO, next.....

[nasty618]

What about another related but slightly different scenario:

 

WSB: engage T1-T3 with two rounds each, perform mandatory reload, engage T1-T3 2 rounds each. 

Shooter engages T1 and T2 with two shots, then fires one round at T3, then reloads and shoots T3 again, does not reload and goes on to engage T1-T3 with two shots each.

 

Is this call correct: one procedural for failure to comply with the WSB (as per 10.2.2) and then six procedurals per shot fired (as per 10.2.4)?

 

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:

What about another related but slightly different scenario:

 

WSB: engage T1-T3 with two rounds each, perform mandatory reload, engage T1-T3 2 rounds each. 

Shooter engages T1 and T2 with two shots, then fires one round at T3, then reloads and shoots T3 again, does not reload and goes on to engage T1-T3 with two shots each.

 

Is this call correct: one procedural for failure to comply with the WSB (as per 10.2.2) and then six procedurals per shot fired (as per 10.2.4)?

 

Rule 10.2.2.1 applies in this situation so you can't penalize the shooter for not firing a second shot at T3 before the reload. In your description the reload is performed then the shooter fires 7 shots (The 2nd shot into T3, then two shots in T1 - T3). In this Scenario they have fired 1 Extra shot after the reload as only 6 are required. There is obviously not an extra hit in T3 so an Extra Hit penalty does not apply. My call would have been 1 Procedural for the Extra Shot after the reload.

 

Rule 10.2.4 does not apply as that is defining the penalty for NOT performing the reload until after it has been stipulated. This covers not being able to engage more targets than defined before performing a mandatory reload. Your scenario does not fall into that situation because the reload is being performed 1 shot before its mandated.

[DKorn]

19 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Rule 10.2.2.1 applies in this situation so you can't penalize the shooter for not firing a second shot at T3 before the reload. In your description the reload is performed then the shooter fires 7 shots (The 2nd shot into T3, then two shots in T1 - T3). In this Scenario they have fired 1 Extra shot after the reload as only 6 are required. There is obviously not an extra hit in T3 so an Extra Hit penalty does not apply. My call would have been 1 Procedural for the Extra Shot after the reload.

 

Rule 10.2.4 does not apply as that is defining the penalty for NOT performing the reload until after it has been stipulated. This covers not being able to engage more targets than defined before performing a mandatory reload. Your scenario does not fall into that situation because the reload is being performed 1 shot before its mandated.

 

I disagree with the extra shot penalty. The rule for extra shots states it is based on the number of rounds in a component string or stage. “After the reload” is neither a string nor stage, and the correct total number of shots were fired. 

[CHA-LEE]

14 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

I disagree with the extra shot penalty. The rule for extra shots states it is based on the number of rounds in a component string or stage. “After the reload” is neither a string nor stage, and the correct total number of shots were fired. 

 

Look at rule 9.4.5.3

[DKorn]

8 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Look at rule 9.4.5.3

I don’t see how it can apply. Each target was engaged with the correct number of rounds during the string. 

[theWacoKid]

I call a rough 6 procedurals here. T1-T3 can be engaged however one wants, i.e. you can do as many reloads as you please while shooting them. Problem is there is a mandatory reload required after T3 and before T4-T6. Penalty for failure to perform a mandatory reload is per shot fired until the reload is done. 6 for that. 

 

There are no extra shots and no penalty for failing to follow the stage brief. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by theWacoKid

[bret]

19 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

I call a rough 6 procedurals here. T1-T3 can be engaged however one wants, i.e. you can do as many reloads as you please while shooting them. Problem is there is a mandatory reload required after T3 and before T4-T6. Penalty for failure to perform a mandatory reload is per shot fired until the reload is done. 6 for that. 

 

There are no extra shots and no penalty for failing to follow the stage brief. 

If they didn't do the mandatory reload,  it is per shot fired, until the reload is made. 

 

So it would be 7 procedurals if you are giving them procedurals for failing to do the mandatory reload.

 

This would be a good one for Troy or an RMI to clarify. 

[theWacoKid]

1 hour ago, bret said:

If they didn't do the mandatory reload,  it is per shot fired, until the reload is made. 

 

So it would be 7 procedurals if you are giving them procedurals for failing to do the mandatory reload.

 

This would be a good one for Troy or an RMI to clarify. 

 Nothing was done wrong for the first 6 shots.  Reloading while shooting the first three targets is fine. The reload is required before the last three targets, so 6 shots. 

[Southpaw]

See NROI Rulings "Stacking Clarification" from 5/18/16 where 9.4.5.3 was updated.  So there's 1 procedural for stacking as 1 target was incorrectly engaged.

 

Ruling:  "Rule 6.1.1 is reworded to read: 6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a stage. Except for Standard Exercises (see 1.2.2.1), a stage will be considered a single string. (rest of rule remains unchanged) Rule 9.4.5.3 is reworded to read: 9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing) will incur one procedural penalty per target incorrectly engaged in the string or stage. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2."

[DKorn]

6 hours ago, Southpaw said:

See NROI Rulings "Stacking Clarification" from 5/18/16 where 9.4.5.3 was updated.  So there's 1 procedural for stacking as 1 target was incorrectly engaged.

 

Ruling:  "Rule 6.1.1 is reworded to read: 6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a stage. Except for Standard Exercises (see 1.2.2.1), a stage will be considered a single string. (rest of rule remains unchanged) Rule 9.4.5.3 is reworded to read: 9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing) will incur one procedural penalty per target incorrectly engaged in the string or stage. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2."

 

I always forget about the rulings on these ones... I’m glad they’re moving to an electronic rulebook that incorporates rulings, because having to check multiple places to make sure that the rule you’re looking at hasn’t been “clarified” is a problem. 

[nasty618]

My initial take was as theWacoKid pointed out - nothing was done wrong for the first 6 shots.  One can reload after each shot if one chooses to do so. In other words: has the shooter arrived to the mandatory reload point with any infractions?  No. What happened after that? He did not reload and continued firing.  Failing to perform the mandatory reload at the WSB specified point calls for a procedural for each shot fired as per 10.2.4. 

 

This one seems like it could be interpreted in a couple of different ways... "IF" we read into the rules and try to interpret them.  I think i recall hearing something along the lines of " Try to not read too deeply into the rules,  use as little personal interpretation as possible to avoid coming up with penalties that were not there" during my RO class.  I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that concept is not new and using the Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is the most fitting. The above paragraph seems to me as the simplest and least complicated path of applying logical reasoning and rules to the actions of the shooter.

 

Hopefully someone from the NROI would chime in to confirm our thoughts and interpretations after the dust settles.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by nasty618

[theWacoKid]

11 hours ago, Southpaw said:

See NROI Rulings "Stacking Clarification" from 5/18/16 where 9.4.5.3 was updated.  So there's 1 procedural for stacking as 1 target was incorrectly engaged.

 

Ruling:  "Rule 6.1.1 is reworded to read: 6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a stage. Except for Standard Exercises (see 1.2.2.1), a stage will be considered a single string. (rest of rule remains unchanged) Rule 9.4.5.3 is reworded to read: 9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing) will incur one procedural penalty per target incorrectly engaged in the string or stage. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2."

 

This is a good catch. I'm now not totally sure. 

 

If this was presented as evidence for calling one procedural I don't think I could refute it.  

 

The only problem I was having was aligning the definition of stacking with the stacking penalty, which means simultaneously over-engaging and under-engaging targets between strings or reloads.  What I was able to reconcile is that T3 is both the target that was over-engaged AND under-engaged during the string.  

 

It helped me to change the scenario a bit and think about what I'd do if the shooter reloaded and then shot T4-T6 and finished with the last shot on T3.  I wouldn't consider 6 procedurals here, yet it is the exact same thing.

 

I change my mind to agree with the one procedural for stacking.

Edited November 20, 2018 by theWacoKid

[CHA-LEE]

Like I said, the appropriate penalty is 1 Procedural for the extra shot taken after the reload (Stacking).

[HoMiE]

21 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Like I said, the appropriate penalty is 1 Procedural for the extra shot taken after the reload (Stacking).

Wouldn’t it be 2 procedural then, 1 for only putting 1 round and another procedural for putting 3 rounds?

[Poppa Bear]

I agree with CHA-LEE.  He performed as the WSB specified.  He shot T1 - T3 with 4 rounds each.  He executed the mandatory reload.

 

He engaged T1 - T3 with 7 shots from the second magazine to make up for one he was short on T3 from the first magazine.  So one procedural for the extra shot after the reload.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Poppa Bear

[CHA-LEE]

2 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Wouldn’t it be 2 procedural then, 1 for only putting 1 round and another procedural for putting 3 rounds?

Rule 10.2.2.1 states that you can't penalize someone for not shooting sufficient rounds.

[JAFO]

While 10.2.2.1 prohibits assessing penalties for number of shots fired, it does so because it states that penalties for that are covered in other rules.  So I don't think you can use 10.2.2.1 to preclude assessing the per shot fired penalties from 10.2.4 for performing the mandatory reload at the incorrect time.  Had the shooter reloaded again after re-engaging T3 for his second shot, there would be no penalties.

 

The stacking example in the rewritten rule has the shooter firing more than the required number of shots at one target before the reload , while at the same time fewer than required at the other.  That isn't the case here, as the shooter did not fire more than the required number of shots before the reload, and did not fire fewer than required after the reload.  If our hypothetical run had the shooter firing 4 shots at T1, 2 shots at T2, and no shots at T3 before the reload, I'd agree with stacking.  But in this case, I think it's a matter of not reloading when required.

Edited November 20, 2018 by JAFO

[MikeBurgess]

24 minutes ago, JAFO said:

While 10.2.2.1 prohibits assessing penalties for number of shots fired, it does so because it states that penalties for that are covered in other rules.  So I don't think you can use 10.2.2.1 to preclude assessing the per shot fired penalties from 10.2.4 for performing the mandatory reload at the incorrect time.  Had the shooter reloaded again after re-engaging T3 for his second shot, there would be no penalties.

 

The stacking example in the rewritten rule has the shooter firing more than the required number of shots at one target before the reload , while at the same time fewer than required at the other.  That isn't the case here, as the shooter did not fire more than the required number of shots before the reload, and did not fire fewer than required after the reload.  If our hypothetical run had the shooter firing 4 shots at T1, 2 shots at T2, and no shots at T3 before the reload, I'd agree with stacking.  But in this case, I think it's a matter of not reloading when required.

In your reading would it matter if after the reload,  the shooter shot T3 3 times then shot T2 2 times then T1  2 times in that sequence?  as opposed to T3 1 shot then T1 2 shots, etc.

 

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

In your reading would it matter if after the reload,  the shooter shot T3 3 times then shot T2 2 times then T1  2 times in that sequence?  as opposed to T3 1 shot then T1 2 shots, etc.

 

I think that was the originally posed question.  2xT1, 2xT2, 1xT3 - Reload - 3xT3, 2xT2, 2xT1.

 

In the first half of the stage (before the reload), the shooter fired fewer than required on T3, but not more than required on any other targets.  After the reload, the shooter fired more than required on T3, but not fewer than required on any other target. The stacking clarification requires both - too many on one, and too few on another.

 

So the shooter failed to reload after engaging T1-T3 with 2 rounds each (he reloaded after T1-T2 w/ 2 rds, but T3 w/ 1rd).  If he had reloaded, shot T3 once, reloaded again, then shot T1-T3 with 2 shots each, then no penalty.  As it stands, he failed to reload after the second shot on T3, so 6 procedurals for failing to reload at the proper time.

[MemphisMechanic]

@CHA-LEE @theWacoKid @JAFO

 

Since you got this topic stuck in my thoughts, I fired up the paint app and got all high tech...

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[theWacoKid]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@CHA-LEE @theWacoKid @JAFO

 

Since you got this topic stuck in my thoughts, I fired up the paint app and got all high tech...

 

 

 

A+