Virginia stage penalty question

[a matt]

Stage requirements are engage  T-1 with 2 rounds only, preform a mandatory reload and  engage T-2 & T-3 with only 2rounds each. 

Shooter engaged T-1 with 3 rounds (called mike was the reason for 3rd third shot on T-1) then preformed the mandatory reload and engaged

T-2 & T-3 with the required 2 rounds each.  What is the shooters penalty or penalties on this Virginia stage?  Thank you. 

[RadarTech]

Was there a 3rd hit on T-1?

[jcc7x7]

One penalty at the line for an extra shot

Then

If the target has an extra hit another penalty for the extra hit on the target

[theWacoKid]

29 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

One penalty at the line for an extra shot

Then

If the target has an extra hit another penalty for the extra hit on the target

 

This is it.  An extra shot penalty, then go score targets appropriately.

[nasty618]

Just to add, if it was a partial target (hard cover or no-shoot) and his "mike" was actually in the hard cover or in the no-shoot portion -  then it will not count as a penalty for additional hit, only if it was on the scoring part of the paper. (see rule 9.4.5.2)

 

if he had fired insufficient shots on the target, he would not have incurred a procedural penalty for not firing enough shots - see 10.2.2.1

[a matt]

3 hours ago, RadarTech said:

Was there a 3rd hit on T-1?

No sir. 

The 2nd shot at T-1 was a miss over right shoulder so I shot the 3rd before my reload. So total hits on each target was 2.  

 I thought 1 penalty for extra shot before the reload. I stopped counting the penalties after he wrote the 5th X on my score sheet and I ask what is all that?  His reasoning made me just walk away. I was truly amazed. 

[RadarTech]

I agree with those above 1 penalty...

[theWacoKid]

1 hour ago, a matt said:

No sir. 

The 2nd shot at T-1 was a miss over right shoulder so I shot the 3rd before my reload. So total hits on each target was 2.  

 I thought 1 penalty for extra shot before the reload. I stopped counting the penalties after he wrote the 5th X on my score sheet and I ask what is all that?  His reasoning made me just walk away. I was truly amazed. 

 

Technically the extra shot didn't happen when you fired third shot at the first target, it happened when you fired the 7th shot of the string. Extra shots don't apply to occurring before or after a mandatory reload, just to the string or stage in total. 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, a matt said:

No sir. 

The 2nd shot at T-1 was a miss over right shoulder so I shot the 3rd before my reload. So total hits on each target was 2.  

 I thought 1 penalty for extra shot before the reload. I stopped counting the penalties after he wrote the 5th X on my score sheet and I ask what is all that?  His reasoning made me just walk away. I was truly amazed. 

 

 

You should have called the RM over

[JAFO]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

You should have called the RM over

If the person scoring you was a host club member and/or RO, I'd still let the MD know.  That's a gross scoring error and the person should be educated as such.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, JAFO said:

If the person scoring you was a host club member and/or RO, I'd still let the MD know.  That's a gross scoring error and the person should be educated as such.

 

 

I agree, but think you quoted the wrong guy

[a matt]

Yes, I agree that should have talked to one of the RM or the MD especially with it being Nats. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ming the Merciless]

4 hours ago, a matt said:

No sir. 

The 2nd shot at T-1 was a miss over right shoulder so I shot the 3rd before my reload. So total hits on each target was 2.  

 I thought 1 penalty for extra shot before the reload. I stopped counting the penalties after he wrote the 5th X on my score sheet and I ask what is all that?  His reasoning made me just walk away. I was truly amazed. 

 

  What was his reasoning?  Not trying to start any flames, I'm just curious and also want to be amazed.

[a matt]

He said, you had an extra shot in T-1, then you reloaded out of sequence, then you engage  T-2 and T-3 with 2 rounds each, out of sequence.  

I’m pretty sure it’s better to shoot a make up in that situation, Virginia count and the complete miss. I was going to get the other RO until he put the pen down and said “its not going make a difference, you’re going to ZERO the stage anyway”.  I don’t care if I missed 6 of the 7 shots, I want the score is shot not it’s a zero anyway. 

That’s when I decided to just walk off.. 

  It’s another lesson learned. 

Thanks for all the replies 

Edited November 9, 2018 by a matt

[LilBunniFuFu]

2 hours ago, a matt said:

He said, you had an extra shot in T-1, then you reloaded out of sequence, then you engage  T-2 and T-3 with 2 rounds each, out of sequence.  

I’m pretty sure it’s better to shoot a make up in that situation, Virginia count and the complete miss. I was going to get the other RO until he put the pen down and said “its not going make a difference, you’re going to ZERO the stage anyway”.  I don’t care if I missed 6 of the 7 shots, I want the score is shot not it’s a zero anyway. 

That’s when I decided to just walk off.. 

  It’s another lesson learned. 

Thanks for all the replies 

Yea. I did the same thing and he said the same exact zero sentence to me. Well. 3 on the first, made up a ND, reload then 2 and 2. One penalty extra shot. One penalty for not following stage procedure. 6A 1NS 2P for a zero. If I had taken the Mike and NS I would've had 4 points and if it was only one P then I would've gotten 7 stage points. I was only 2 points behind the competitor who finished ahead of me!

[PatJones]

Why didn't you ask to speak with the range master?

[molson]

Just out of curiosity, could you post to this thread the entire stage procedure.  I would be curious to see if it contains wording regarding the penalties that will be assessed.

 

I fully understand "Virginia" count scoring.  And agree with others on penalties and the question of not going to the RM.  just curious if Penalties were written in specifically.

 

Mike

[jcc7x7]

I would have been" that guy" calling the RM and having targets pulled etc.

[Balakay]

The fact that this happened at Nats blows my mind. Sounds like local match shenanigans. 

[DKorn]

I think this is 2 penalties- one for the mandatory reload in the wrong place and one for the extra shot overall. But I could be wrong. 

 

It does bring up a question though- if a mandatory reload is called for after engaging T1 with 1 round, is required to be after engaging T1 (and before engaging T2 and T3), after firing 1 round, or both?

[theWacoKid]

3 hours ago, DKorn said:

I think this is 2 penalties- one for the mandatory reload in the wrong place and one for the extra shot overall. But I could be wrong. 

 

It does bring up a question though- if a mandatory reload is called for after engaging T1 with 1 round, is required to be after engaging T1 (and before engaging T2 and T3), after firing 1 round, or both?

 

The reload isn't in the wrong place.  The stage brief normally states to engage some targets with some number of rounds and then reload to engage some targets with some number of rounds.  As long as you reload before engaging the next targets there's not a penalty for failing to reload.  Reason being, if you shoot more at the targets before the reload, you're still going to be penalized by either extra shots or for stacking.  Plus, rule 10.2.2.1 says penalties for failing to comply with stage procedures doesn't apply to number of shots fired because those penalties are specifically covered in the rules.  If you penalize because of a reload after three shots you're applying a stage procedure penalty based on number of fired shots, which you can't do.  

 

I remember we discussed getting multiple penalties for a single action and the only time that that ever occurs is if you fire an extra shot and end up with an extra hit to go along with it.  Other than that the rules are written to not ding you twice for the same mistake.  In this case, one extra shot.

[ima45dv8]

I wish you had called the RM(s) to comment on this.

I'm sure they would have corrected the scoring error and quietly supplied some remedial training for those involved.

 

Can't fix a problem until you're aware of it.

[DKorn]

54 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

As long as you reload before engaging the next targets there's not a penalty for failing to reload. 

 

This isn’t what the RMI that I just asked is telling me, so now I’m more confused. I may shoot DNROI an email about this one. 

[theWacoKid]

2 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

This isn’t what the RMI that I just asked is telling me, so now I’m more confused. I may shoot DNROI an email about this one. 

 

While I like Virginia count, I totally understand why IPSC axed it.

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, theWacoKid said:

 

While I like Virginia count, I totally understand why IPSC axed it.

Yep, it’s definitely confusing. 

 

In fact, the RMI I asked stated that the mandatory reload was specified off of the number of shots fired and not the targets engaged. This doesn’t make sense to me but I’m not sure.