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Sigarmsp226

Stage Description - Three to the body and two to the head - Scoring Question

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Question for those here who know more than me and I think the SO that scored this target.

 

Stage is Limited Scoring...

 

Target reflects 5 bullet holes with three in the body 0 down area and two in the one down area between the body and head BUT the two shots above the body down 0 area did NOT strike the head “zone”....

 

SO, who is fairly new, and is “never wrong” (if you ask him) scored this target in the following manner....

 

Two PE’s for having no bullet strikes in the head area PLUS

10 down for “missing” the head area completely twice PLUS

He removed the two best hits from the 0 down body area thus causing these two to cause another 10 down.....PLUS

2 down for the two shots that missed the 0 down ring in the main body are

 

I went 28 down on this one target based on his scoring....

 

 

I did not have a rule book with me and had no internet service so I was unable to respectfully argue the final call but I did ask to speak to him after the non-sactioned match to ask that he review this call when he got home....Waiting for his feedback, if I get any....

 

 Experienced S.O’s - How do you score this target....Thanks. Mark

Edited by Sigarmsp226

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I think you wanted to post this in the IDPA forum. None of this makes sense in USPSA.

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Sarge - Sir you are right. My appology. I will ask if a mod can move this or should I just delete my original post?

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The Mods will probably move this as soon as the sun comes up in their neck of the woods.     :) 

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20 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

The Mods will probably move this as soon as the sun comes up in their neck of the woods.     :) 

Or before 😉

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2 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Two PE’s for having no bullet strikes in the head area PLUS

10 down for “missing” the head area completely twice PLUS

He removed the two best hits from the 0 down body area thus causing these two to cause another 10 down.....PLUS

2 down for the two shots that missed the 0 down ring in the main body are

 

I went 28 down on this one target based on his scoring....

 

IF the two shots high in the body appeared to have been attempts to shoot the head, I would not assess any PE. 

 

If I was not convinced that the shooter had attempted to hit the head with those two shots, I would assess one PE, per section 5.1, "A PE is assessed for each type of infraction.  If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each TYPE of infraction.  For cover violations (or faulting the line), the number of PE's cannot exceed the number of positions of cover"  (Bold & CAPS added for emphasis.)  Assuming the shooter did not attempt to hit the head, I would also then discount the two best hits to the body. 

 

There is a bit of judgement call as to whether the shooter attempted to hit the head, but I tend to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt when possible, per 4.5 "Reasonable Doubt",  

 

The shooter would be assessed 10 down for the two misses, and zero down for the body hits.  

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3 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Two PE’s for having no bullet strikes in the head area PLUS

10 down for “missing” the head area completely twice PLUS

He removed the two best hits from the 0 down body area thus causing these two to cause another 10 down.....PLUS

2 down for the two shots that missed the 0 down ring in the main body are

 

I went 28 down on this one target based on his scoring....

 


 

Quote

 

3.2.5 A target is considered “Engaged” when:

 

     A. A cardboard target is deemed to have been engaged when the required number of shots for that target have been fired at the target.

 

     B. Body and head shots may be required on an individual visible cardboard target and must be shot in the order and quantity stipulated in the CoF. Failure to shoot one or more targets in the required body then head order earns the shooter a single PE.

 

Since you didn't specify that there was an engagement order and you did fire the required number of shots there is no PE for this.

 

Quote

4.11.1 “Head” refers to the part of the cardboard IDPA silhouette above the neckline. Shots designated for the “head” or “head only” must hit the part of the cardboard silhouette within the scoring area above the neckline, or they are counted as a miss, even if they hit another part of the silhouette.

So you are down 10 for the two misses and there is no penalty for accidentally hitting the body of the target.

 

Quote

4.2.2 Firing any extra shots in a string of fire will incur one Procedural Error penalty per string and for each extra shot 1 of the best scoring hits will be taped over before the score is calculated. When the shooter does not fire enough rounds at a target, the unfired rounds are counted as misses, a Procedural Error penalty is assessed for not following the written stage description, and other penalties may apply.

He can remove the best hits only if you fire extra shots otherwise you get credit for the best required hits on target.

 

I would say you were down 10.

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op, what do you think your score should be?

 

sounds like you fired the five required rounds, demonstrated by five hits on the target, albeit not all in the right place.  assuming you only fired five.  so no procedurals.  i'd say down 10 for the two missed head shots and down zero in the body.

 

his giving procedurals and removing the best scores in the body would be relevant if you fired too many shots at the overall target.  actually the rules say one procedural per string not per extra shot.

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So you missed 2 heads and this SO gave you two procedurals (not sure why) and he removed 2 hits to to the zero (not sure why either) This is bad enough but how did this guy take it to 22 down + 6sec for the procedurals?   You should have had 3 shots still in the body so 12 down plus procedurals.  How did he add an extra 10 down?   

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If the  stage description called for three shots to the body and two shots to the head and three were in the body and the other two were in the not in the head box, then the target should be scored "Down 10".  (That's assuming all three shots in the body were in the "0" box of the body).

 

Your score keeper is mistaken and if he continues to use this approach to scoring, will discourage shooters from participating in the sport.

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16 hours ago, 45 Raven said:

If the  stage description called for three shots to the body and two shots to the head and three were in the body and the other two were in the not in the head box, then the target should be scored "Down 10".  (That's assuming all three shots in the body were in the "0" box of the body).

 

Your score keeper is mistaken and if he continues to use this approach to scoring, will discourage shooters from participating in the sport.

👆 this

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I was the shooter in this senario.... I did not realize due to the distance that I was actually hitting all shots low and as a result the three to the body did fall in the 0 down area and the two to the head were just under the head area....I thought the target should have been scored 10 down but to no suprise I ended up 28 down on this one target.....

 

Needless to say I have decided to skip the next match because this particular S.O. Is running the match...I will not shoot any future matches with this S.O. Running the match....

 

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback, comments, and support.....Mark

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40 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

I was the shooter in this senario.... I did not realize due to the distance that I was actually hitting all shots low and as a result the three to the body did fall in the 0 down area and the two to the head were just under the head area....I thought the target should have been scored 10 down but to no suprise I ended up 28 down on this one target.....

 

Needless to say I have decided to skip the next match because this particular S.O. Is running the match...I will not shoot any future matches with this S.O. Running the match....

 

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback, comments, and support.....Mark

You should let the club know that you will not shoot with them anymore because of this type of SO. Also might want to show the SO the rules and see what they say when shown the rules. No SO/RO is perfect, and getting called out sucks, but it might help in the end to make them a better SO.

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Agree with floater, don't just go away mad, let them know what is happening.

 

Also is the ignorant SO the MD?  If not, you can always go over his head.

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Absolutely!!  Don't deprive yourself of an opportunity to shoot and enjoy the sport.  There may be a chance that the SO is simply ignorant of the rules, and "doesn't know what he doesn't know".  If he is any type of a sportsman and fair of mind, he should be receptive to input and questions . Unless he is the ONLY authority in this particular club when it comes to fairly administering rules for the benefit of fairness to all competitors, there should be someone (or several someones) who will listen to a legitimate, clearly stated complaint and be willing to get this straightened out.  

 

You have every right to seek answers to your questions about rules and to speak up if they are being administered incorrectly or unfairly.

 

Good luck!

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I'm an IDPA SO and would have scored it 10 down with no PEs. If I was the shooter on this scenario and got scored like that, I would have left the match right then and there and never come back. There's too many other IDPA matches within driving distance to me to put up with such a discouraging experience like that. With douchebag SOs like this one, its no wonder IDPA is losing so many members to USPSA. 

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Since it was Shots Limited and 5 hits required, and 5 hits on the target.  It would score "0" on the body and +10 seconds for the 2 missed head shots.

There are extra shot Penalties in Shots Limited but I don't see anything about extra hit Penalties, are there?

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