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Classifier vs match bump


Swanny10

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6 minutes ago, MHicks said:

When we talk about someone shooting a classifier until they get the score they want, what is the process? Do people shoot the same one 20 times, get 1 with 96%, a bunch of 0's and the rest in between, then only submit the 1 96% score? If one shooter could get 95%+ on the majority of his tries and another shooter can do it once out of 20+ attempts it seems like there would in reality be a pretty big difference in their abilities.

There is.  Look at the scores and you'll see some A's and even B's above some M's and maybe even a GM or two.  I suspect those are the ones that got the 1 out of 20 turned in.  The ones that can do it consistently are the ones at the top of the list at the end of the match.    

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26 minutes ago, MHicks said:

When we talk about someone shooting a classifier until they get the score they want, what is the process? Do people shoot the same one 20 times, get 1 with 96%, a bunch of 0's and the rest in between, then only submit the 1 96% score? If one shooter could get 95%+ on the majority of his tries and another shooter can do it once out of 20+ attempts it seems like there would in reality be a pretty big difference in their abilities.

 

I thought rules stated that classifiers could be reshot only once.

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6 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

I hear you and i agree, it that were the scenario.  But it doesnt seem that it was the case here - sounds to me more like all match participants were allowed to reshoot and things were uploaded as designed for classification purposes, not for match score - Matt1911, if i am wrong please correct me?.  If that's the case, then no rules were broken and 10.6.1 (I dont think .2 and .3 are applicable here) covers match DQs based on RM's/RO's perception and judgement of competitor's actions during the match... In this particular case, competitor acted in accordance with the announced match plan.

 

 

I think we're in agreement that it would be unethical to shoot a classifier until you're happy with the score, that it would go against the guidelines of the Classification Course book and affect the integrity of the classification system.  I still have to maintain my view that there is a fine line between cheating/illegal and unethical. 

 

And to my original point -  even if a paper GM is not competitive on a national level, i still think that getting to a GM level on paper is an excellent, hard yet achievable goal for anyone. And getting there is no small feat. Bashing someone for having a goal of becoming a paper GM is... unethical :)

It was an all classifier "match" mainly put together to get those who haven't shot a bunch of classifiers in matches the opportunity to get themselves ranked to see where they stand or for those switching divisions to get classified in their new gear for upcoming matches. 

The option to pay for extra chances was there for everyone, though not many did. 

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6.2.4 states that only the first gun shot can be used for the match score; all other entries do not count for  match  placement.  However,  the  USPSA  board  of directors approved a U.S. rule (US 6.2.4) that provides an exception for Level 1 matches only. Whether to allow reshoots  to  count  for  match  score  is  a  match  director decision

 

https://uspsa.org/viewer/NCCB_4.1_2016.pdf - page 4 and 8 

 

I dont think i saw a limitation on how many times one can reshoot...  i would think second time is all a good competitor would ever ask for, but perhaps a "reasonable" number might be 3?  This is just my opinion, based on the fact that one can take an open book RO exam up to three times.  I would say why would anyone ever need a third time, but the option is there. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, hitman_usmc said:

Look at the scores and you'll see some A's and even B's above some M's and maybe even a GM or two.  I suspect those are the ones that got the 1 out of 20 turned in. 

 

I doubt it. More likely, those are some reshooters, but far more As and Bs shooting a classifier at “balls to the wall, hero or zero” pace.

 

I’ve done that exactly once as a midpack A class; just for fun I shot one faster than I could see, got lucky on a recklessly fast reload, and the hits were there. It was a 94ish % classifier if I recall.

 

That approach usually doesn’t work out so well, but it is a strategy some guys stick to.

 

Alternatively, a stage is often nothing more than several classifier arrays scattered around a bay with movement in between. If your stand and shoot skills come up? Your points shot will also improve on other stages.

 

There’s nothing wrong with practicing your standards type skills really hard.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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6 hours ago, rowdyb said:

And absolutely NO way can just anyone make it to GM with just lots of hard work

 

5 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

Correct on all counts, I would say

 

I am curios why you guys feel that way?  I am a firm believer that with enough hard work anyone can achieve any reasonable goal.  I feel that making "paper GM" is not easy by any means, but it's a reasonable goal one can set and achieve with enough work and dedication.  What do you feel the other components are? 

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56 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

I am curios why you guys feel that way?  I am a firm believer that with enough hard work anyone can achieve any reasonable goal.  I feel that making "paper GM" is not easy by any means, but it's a reasonable goal one can set and achieve with enough work and dedication.  What do you feel the other components are? 

I misread what he said, and think it is probably what he actually meant to say... I think that there is absolutely no way anyone can make it to GM without just lots of hard work. But I don't want to put words in Rowdy's mouth, that is just what I think. 

 

Look at the individual parts of a solid 95% or higher run, and many (most?) shooters can't even complete the separate skills in the time required, let alone string them altogether at once while managing to actually fling the bullets in a somewhat reasonable direction. To even get to the point where that is possible, even with a couple ties at it, takes work.

 

If you can shoot classifiers at the GM level, even just most or part-of the time, you are probably gonna shred people on field courses too. I'm not saying there aren't true paper/grandbagger GMs out there that reshot over and over and over again to get the score they want, but those people are in my experience the vast minority. And now there is a rule to prevent that from ever happening again (only one reshoot per division per classifier per day). But if you are a paper GM, that probably would be more like a mid to high A (where I think people could potentially have the skills to shoot a GM score given a reasonable number of tries), you can probably shoot better points faster than someone who isn't a paper GM. 

 

Classifiers are an incredibly accurate measure of your shooting skill, regardless of what many people would try to lead you to believe.

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On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:54 AM, Gooldylocks said:

It isn't easy to get a match bump to GM. There are many hoops that have to line up for it to happen.

 

For any division at any level 2 or 3 match to count as a classifier, there must be a minimum of 3 GMs in the division, and they must all score at 90% or better of the winner. Additionally, there must be 50 or more shooters in the division. Then to get a match bump in any division, you must place 5% or higher above your current class ceiling. M-class goes from 85-94.9%. 

 

So to recap:

  • There have to be a fair number of GMs that shot pretty well
  • There have to be at least 50 shooters (many/most L2s fail here) in the division
  • As a Master shooter you must outright win the match. 

The only other option is finish at 95% or better of the winner at Nats. Which doesn't happen very often either. 

 

Do you mind posting the source for this ruling? I can't find this in the 2014 rulebook about the number of GM's required. Thanks in advance. 

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11 minutes ago, happygunner77 said:

 

Do you mind posting the source for this ruling? I can't find this in the 2014 rulebook about the number of GM's required. Thanks in advance. 

 It’s in the classifier handbook and as Gooldy pointed out in the rules as well. Their has also been some confusion in the past as well because rules just say 3 GM’s that shoot 90% when classifier says 

enough top shooters

completed the match and performed at a level high

enough to be considered a national standard.

 

Edited by Sarge
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3 minutes ago, happygunner77 said:

 

Do you mind posting the source for this ruling? I can't find this in the 2014 rulebook about the number of GM's required. Thanks in advance. 

Quote

Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish classification. Your percentage in a level II or III match will be used as a classifier if there are more than 50 competitors in your division, and 3 Grand Masters placing at 90% or above. If you place 5% or more above your current class ceiling, you will be moved up one class in that division. In addition, if you score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be moved to Grand Master class for that division.

page iii of the rulebook

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Ok thanks.

 

My handbook says differently and it's from the 2014.

 

Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class, even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class may result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately moved to Grand Master class for that division. 

Edited by happygunner77
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Wow. When I started this thread I didn’t expect it to go down this road. I just wondered how many GMs got to that point by match performance. 

 

So I’l Ask this...is someone a “paper GM” if they got there by classifiers they happen to run into during the course of competition but have never shot 95% in a major? Or is it someone who who got their by reshooting classifiers for money, trained specific classifiers they knew they would see, etc?

 

Because if it’s the former than damn near every GM in existence is a paper GM, correct?

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@Swanny10 you hit on the massive gray area. These threads always go down this road because there’s a wide variety of views on what constitutes the “paper” part.

 

I’d only apply that term to someone who has routinely reshot classifiers without a legitimate reason like a jammed gun.

 

Others think setting up & shooting classifiers for practice instantly qualifies you, and I don’t. They’re simply great drills which are easy to make repeatable.

 

But then, I’d LOVE to be a paper GM!

 

My stand and shoot skills would be wicked, and that would mean I’d only need to focus hard on movement/entry/exit skills in order to be a well rounded shooter.

 

 

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Every GM is a paper GM as no one gets to that classification via match bump. Heck, look at the names with a G on it behind me at this year's Prod nats, I bet you wouldn't say that Rossen Hristov, Justine Williams, Joel Park or Tim Meyers are paper GM's in the derisive way people mean "paper". Or what about someone like Ashley who is an A and yet was 33rd overall? She very rarely shoots locals and as I've personally stood there when she has, and spent hours and hours with her in a practice bay she just doesn't shoot classifiers well, or often. To borrow a racing term, she is a "Sunday girl", meaning she is on when it counts.

 

And I do not think everyone has it in them to be GM, even if you gave them free range time and unlimited ammo and decent advice.  Not everyone has the nascent or innate ability for a strong grip, hand eye coordination, confidence, manual of arms and dedication to make it happen. Less than 2% of people EVER in USPSA make it to GM and only about 5% make it to M. Ranges are littered with people who used to compete and/or gave up their goal of M/GM when they realized just what it takes.

 

This from the perspective of someone currently at 94% in Prod and who is also a M in idpa and steel challenge. Who started shooting when they were 41 years old.

Edited by rowdyb
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I could almost never make GM on classifiers.  I got bumped from winning area 3, which I think was the best way possible.  I'd much rather have that then getting it by gaming a bunch of classifiers and doing a lot of math.  I assume a lot are from classifiers as it's hard to get bumped

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10 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Not everyone has the nascent or innate ability for a strong grip, hand eye coordination, confidence, manual of arms and dedication to make it happen. Less than 2% of people EVER in USPSA make it to GM and only about 5% make it to M. Ranges are littered with people who used to compete and/or gave up their goal of M/GM when they realized just what it takes

 

That makes sense, sure. Good points, thanks for clarifying!  One could make an argument that all of those attributes (or lack thereof) could be addressed with "hard work" and "dedication", but reality is - very few people have the capacity to go through when THAT much work is required, you're absolutely right...  And given what Gooldy and others said earlier - it seems to me that it's even more of a reason to give credit to a "non-competitive at the National level GM" for getting to a 95%+ level on classifiers.  

 

Just to clarify why i am interested in hearing better and more experienced shooters' opinion on this  - as a new shooter, i have heard the term "paper M/GM" being used dismissively with shooters who were not placing well at larger events, below some As and Bs.  Now having done a bit of dry and live fire practice and shot a few more matches, i am realizing that the perspective is not correct and to achieve a 95% level on classifiers takes a lot of work. An M and GM are higher Levels of Prestige (Call of Duty reference here lol) no matter how you slice it.

Edited by nasty618
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34 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

lol exactly. next time i hear someone use that term, i'll be sure to ask where they stand with their classification percentage.

I’ll gladly admit I’m unclassified. I just started this thread to learn something. 

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27 minutes ago, Swanny10 said:

I’ll gladly admit I’m unclassified. I just started this thread to learn something. 

You didn't say anything wrong. 

 

I just mean, some folks say it (paper GM) to criticize.  Maybe out of jealousy?  Sure a few people have reshot classifers multiple times until they got a GM score but that really doesn't seem all that common. At least not anywhere I shoot. I guess those people would be "paper". 

 

At my home club if I'm RO'g a shooter anywhere and they have a malfunction, I ask them if they want a reshoot. It's supposed to be a test of skill not how well they maintian their gun or how well their gear works. To me, that's the only reason I think a reshoot should be allowed. Maybe I'm wrong?  I don't know but that's how I do it.

 

I shot CM 03-14 Baseball Standards last weekend. I shoot it way too fast. I had time left after each string! A lot of time in some of the strings.  I dropped a ton of points. I would have loved to shoot that one again. I could have probably put up a GM score with just one reshoot. But, my gear ran so I didn't even consider reshooting it. 

 

 

If some people want to keep shooting them or did that in the past, it's not allowed now, then that's their prerogative but its gonna show that they're not really whatever classification at matches. 

 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

Is it me or is only non M/GM shooters calling others paper M/GM?

 

I've still not seen a paper GM. 

 

 

a paper GM is easy to spot. Look in match results about 20 spots from the top after all the GM,M,A,B shooters. See that GM who shot 65%? That's him most likely. Barring major gun issues of course. Same with sandbaggers. See that A shooter who always smokes the M's and occasional GM? Yep, that's him.

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19 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

At my home club if I'm RO'g a shooter anywhere and they have a malfunction, I ask them if they want a reshoot. It's supposed to be a test of skill not how well they maintian their gun or how well their gear works. To me, that's the only reason I think a reshoot should be allowed. Maybe I'm wrong?  I don't know but that's how I do it.

If you as the RO are offering them a reshoot and that is counting for the match, then you are absolutely doing it wrong. Whatever happens on that first run is scored and entered into the match, because at the end of the day it is just another stage. 

 

However if you are scoring that one, THEN offering them a reshoot for classification and recording that somewhere else to be turned in to the MD after the match, that's different. 

 

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:

 

That makes sense, sure. Good points, thanks for clarifying!  One could make an argument that all of those attributes (or lack thereof) could be addressed with "hard work" and "dedication", but reality is - very few people have the capacity to go through when THAT much work is required, you're absolutely right...  And given what Gooldy and others said earlier - it seems to me that it's even more of a reason to give credit to a "non-competitive at the National level GM" for getting to a 95%+ level on classifiers.  

What do you consider a "non-competitive National Level GM"? Honest question. Because @csailer just finished 3rd at nats, and was only at 93% of the winner. He is, coincidentally, one of the literal handful of people to probably ever make GM from a match bump. Not a single person at nationals this year finished 95% or better of JJ, let alone someone that was M class. The first M was at 80.86%. So okay, not Open what about other divisions? Production: one, though the only reason he isn't is because he doesn't live in this country. Limited: one, only reason he is getting a bump is because he is unclassified... In CO, there will be four match bumps to GM after nationals, for Hwansik, Phil, Mason, and Shane (one notoriously underclassed shooter and three super squad GMs in other divisions, two of which are unclassified).

 

The point I'm trying to make is, in well populated divisions, it is rare to ever get a match bump to GM. Especially if you take out the people that already are GMs in another division. It is extremely rare. Unless you are a madman like Christian and slay a bunch of people at an Area match, but even then it is rare. 

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33 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

At my home club if I'm RO'g a shooter anywhere and they have a malfunction, I ask them if they want a reshoot. It's supposed to be a test of skill not how well they maintian their gun or how well their gear works. To me, that's the only reason I think a reshoot should be allowed. Maybe I'm wrong?  I don't know but that's how I do it.

 

Wow! Yes, you are doing it wrong. And on several counts. LOL Being able to shoot well in a match certainly does depend on your equipment running. A gun that runs is just as critical as practice. You can't win without either for long. Then there are the rules to consider. There is only one instance where reshoots are "offered" and it's not for a gun problem. And you do realize USPSA should be getting a cut of every classifer shot at a match. That's why MD's charge people to reshoot the occasional classifier. 

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