Classifier vs match bump

[Swanny10]

Does anyone have any hard data on how many GMs got there by shooting classifiers and how many got there by performance in competition?

[malobukov]

The closest I have is median match percent in all 2017 area matches combined in Production by class. For GMs it's about 80%, way below 95% required to get GM card through match bump.

[Swanny10]

41 minutes ago, malobukov said:

The closest I have is median match percent in all 2017 area matches combined in Production by class. For GMs it's about 80%, way below 95% required to get GM card through match bump.

 

Wow. Thanks Malo. I was expecting that even though I asked for  hard data I was going to have to suffer through a bunch of posts about people’s various speculations. 

 

This is good stuff. 

[Gooldylocks]

It isn't easy to get a match bump to GM. There are many hoops that have to line up for it to happen.

 

For any division at any level 2 or 3 match to count as a classifier, there must be a minimum of 3 GMs in the division, and they must all score at 90% or better of the winner. Additionally, there must be 50 or more shooters in the division. Then to get a match bump in any division, you must place 5% or higher above your current class ceiling. M-class goes from 85-94.9%. 

 

So to recap:

• There have to be a fair number of GMs that shot pretty well
• There have to be at least 50 shooters (many/most L2s fail here) in the division
• As a Master shooter you must outright win the match. 

The only other option is finish at 95% or better of the winner at Nats. Which doesn't happen very often either. 

[Swanny10]

Yeah when I saw the 5% above thing it seemed to me you would basically have to win a MAJOR major. 

 

And this is all theoretical for me. I’m currently unclassified. Lol

 

I was basically mulling over the whole paper vs comp GM debate in my head. 

 

Thanks guys.  

[Matt1911]

I know of at least 1 guy locally that got his GM card by going to an all classifier match that allowed you to pay $5 to reshoot any stage you wanted as many times as you want. Not happy with the score? $5 to do it again. Still not happy? $5 do it again. 

It's not the way I'd want to get there, but some do. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Matt1911 said:

I know of at least 1 guy locally that got his GM card by going to an all classifier match that allowed you to pay $5 to reshoot any stage you wanted as many times as you want. Not happy with the score? $5 to do it again. Still not happy? $5 do it again. 

It's not the way I'd want to get there, but some do. 

Hence, the term paper GM. 

[revoman]

37 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hence, the term paper GM. 

Don’t they look silly when they can’t shoot GM level at a match. 

[Sarge]

For sure. There was a local guy years ago that shot classifiers over and over until he aced them and then got somebody to upload scores for him. Couldn't win anything buy locals.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Sarge

[mwc]

5 hours ago, revoman said:

Don’t they look silly when they can’t shoot GM level at a match. 

I guess it depends on the match.  At nationals you usually see only one or two guys shoot within 95% of the winner.

[Matt1911]

6 hours ago, revoman said:

Don’t they look silly when they can’t shoot GM level at a match. 

Yep. Which is why I don't want to get my score up by that method. 

It was funny when I, (high B class) smoked him at a local match. 

 

I haven't seen him around in the past couple years since he got his GM card. 

I guess he just wanted the paper. 

[nasty618]

On 11/3/2018 at 6:38 PM, Matt1911 said:

I guess he just wanted the paper.

 

I dont really see anything wrong with that, to be honest.  If his goal was to get a GM card - he achieved it.  Everyone should have a measurable, achievable and reasonable goal.  Shooting classifiers at a GM level is hard enough. If getting a paper GM rating were so easy, then why arent we all GMs?

 

From another angle, at the 2018 Nats there were plenty of GMs, Ms and As that didnt even come close their classification percentages.  And a lot of them got smoked by Bs...

 

 

 

 

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

If getting a paper GM rating were so easy, then why arent we all GM’s?

 

 

 

 

Because most of us aren’t cheaters?

[Swanny10]

I’m not disparaging the classifier system. Or anything else for that matter. But if they did away with it and combine that with the fact that it is virtually impossible to get a match bump to GM with the current requisites, how many new GMs would there be in a given year? 3 or 4? Which is fine I guess. GM is supposed to be elite. 

[nasty618]

15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Because most of us aren’t cheaters?

 

What rules did he break? 

 

It is understood  that  anyone  can  do  poorly  on  a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA  board  of  directors  has  allowed  members  to reshoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a  score  they  like.  The  integrity  of  the  classification system is at stake.

Maybe borderline unethical, but no rules are broken. 

 

Further, nobody stops anyone from setting up and practicing any and all of the known classifiers.  I know several people that do it in advance of the match, if the stages are published...  is that cheating? 

Edited November 5, 2018 by nasty618

[RJH]

I got a match bump, but it wasn't to GM.  Then saw a guy the next year shoot a higher percentage against a deeper field and not get a match bump, maybe it was the three with 90% that didn't happen there, IDK, strange voodoo.  He wouldn't have bumped to GM either though, but still odd.

 

I will say this though, a match bump is the coolest award i have ever gotten shooting USPSA, and I liked moving up that way better than through classifiers

Edited November 5, 2018 by RJH

[Matt1911]

27 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

What rules did he break? 

 

It is understood  that  anyone  can  do  poorly  on  a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA  board  of  directors  has  allowed  members  to reshoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a  score  they  like.  The  integrity  of  the  classification system is at stake.

Maybe borderline unethical, but no rules are broken. 

 

Further, nobody stops anyone from setting up and practicing any and all of the known classifiers.  I know several people that do it in advance of the match, if the stages are published...  is that cheating? 

If you want to set some stages up to practice on, by all means, go for it as much as you want. Lord knows I need to practice more myself. 

When it's the real deal for a score though, I (personal opinion) see it as unethical/borderline cheating to run it over and over again til you get what you want. 

[3gunDQ]

I earned a match bump to M and I shot classifiers for my GM. I think neither mean jack$hit. I think this is a live in the now sport. Shoot right now. This weekend 3 GMs including: one old school, one new (me), and one hands down without a doubt GM shot a classifier at our home club. We all shot high A% and were within 5% of each other for the stage in the match. The classifiers are just a stage... the scores are jacked up high now. I am not going for GM scores... I’m just trying to shoot my best match. 

 

I have reshot classifiers... hell I think everyone has shot a bunch of the same ones. Some classifiers are more popular than others, some can’t be set up inside, small ranges use the smallest bay for a classifier. Is what it is. Also if you have never practiced classifiers then maybe you should. There is a lot of fundamentals, lot of loads, and procedures, draws, start positions... shooting makes you a better shooter. The classifier book is a good resource. 

 

If you want a class bump shoot like your hair is on fire and legit. Shoot a bunch of majors and match bump. Or don’t, I don’t care. Shoot your best match, win if it works out. 

 

[nasty618]

I understand where you're coming from, i do. And I agree that it's unethical to "shoot classifier stages repeatedly until you like the score".  Shooting a classifier is a test, right? Prep for it as much as you want, maybe even get a second try if you your equipment fails... but  you cant take the test 10 times until you get the score you want.  Hey, even the USPSA RO certification gives you an open book test and you get three tries at it!

 

But based on the info you presented, i cannot agree that he was cheating.  To cheat is to "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."

 

You said: "1 guy locally that got his GM card by going to an all classifier match that allowed you to pay $5 to reshoot any stage you wanted as many times as you want. Not happy with the score? $5 to do it again. Still not happy? $5 do it again." 

 

Was this announced and approved by the MD?
Was the option to reshoot in that manner given to every match participant? 

Is practicing a known published classifier as much as you want considered cheating?

 

If the answers are yes, yes and no - then i think it's clear he wasnt cheating.  I highly value honesty and integrity and I think cheating is a heavy accusation that shouldnt be thrown out there so eagerly.

[Matt1911]

29 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

I understand where you're coming from, i do. And I agree that it's unethical to "shoot classifier stages repeatedly until you like the score".  Shooting a classifier is a test, right? Prep for it as much as you want, maybe even get a second try if you your equipment fails... but  you cant take the test 10 times until you get the score you want.  Hey, even the USPSA RO certification gives you an open book test and you get three tries at it!

 

But based on the info you presented, i cannot agree that he was cheating.  To cheat is to "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."

 

You said: "1 guy locally that got his GM card by going to an all classifier match that allowed you to pay $5 to reshoot any stage you wanted as many times as you want. Not happy with the score? $5 to do it again. Still not happy? $5 do it again." 

 

Was this announced and approved by the MD?
Was the option to reshoot in that manner given to every match participant? 

Is practicing a known published classifier as much as you want considered cheating?

 

If the answers are yes, yes and no - then i think it's clear he wasnt cheating.  I highly value honesty and integrity and I think cheating is a heavy accusation that shouldnt be thrown out there so eagerly.

Yes, yes, and no. 

I said "borderline cheating" because he didn't break any set rules of the match and therefore did not cheat. It is, again, my opinion on the subject. Which I realize means exactly squat. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:

 

What rules did he break? 

 

It is understood  that  anyone  can  do  poorly  on  a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA  board  of  directors  has  allowed  members  to reshoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a  score  they  like.  The  integrity  of  the  classification system is at stake.

Maybe borderline unethical, but no rules are broken. 

 

Further, nobody stops anyone from setting up and practicing any and all of the known classifiers.  I know several people that do it in advance of the match, if the stages are published...  is that cheating? 

You don’t have to break a rule to be a cheater because 10.6 covers it.

  Sure , practice classifiers all you want. But if I’m an uploader for acme gun club and set up a classifier for you to shoot until you hit a GM score and then submit it with match scores, that’s cheating, unethical, whatever you want to call it.

[nasty618]

 

16 hours ago, Sarge said:

Sure , practice classifiers all you want. But if I’m an uploader for acme gun club and set up a classifier for you to shoot until you hit a GM score and then submit it with match scores

 

I hear you and i agree, it that were the scenario.  But it doesnt seem that it was the case here - sounds to me more like all match participants were allowed to reshoot and things were uploaded as designed for classification purposes, not for match score - Matt1911, if i am wrong please correct me?.  If that's the case, then no rules were broken and 10.6.1 (I dont think .2 and .3 are applicable here) covers match DQs based on RM's/RO's perception and judgement of competitor's actions during the match... In this particular case, competitor acted in accordance with the announced match plan.

 

 

I think we're in agreement that it would be unethical to shoot a classifier until you're happy with the score, that it would go against the guidelines of the Classification Course book and affect the integrity of the classification system.  I still have to maintain my view that there is a fine line between cheating/illegal and unethical. 

 

And to my original point -  even if a paper GM is not competitive on a national level, i still think that getting to a GM level on paper is an excellent, hard yet achievable goal for anyone. And getting there is no small feat. Bashing someone for having a goal of becoming a paper GM is... unethical

Edited November 6, 2018 by nasty618

[rowdyb]

I bet the number of people who've match bumped to GM could be counted on one hand in the past decade.

 

And if you denigrate making GM off classifiers you've obviously never shot 6  at 95% or better of them.

 

And absolutely NO way can just anyone make it to GM with just lots of hard work.

Edited November 6, 2018 by rowdyb

[Gooldylocks]

30 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I bet the number of people who've match bumped to GM could be counted on one hand in the past decade.

 

And if you denigrate making GM off classifiers you've obviously never shot 6  at 95% or better of them.

 

And absolutely NO way can just anyone make it to GM with just lots of hard work.

Correct on all counts, I would say.

[MHicks]

When we talk about someone shooting a classifier until they get the score they want, what is the process? Do people shoot the same one 20 times, get 1 with 96%, a bunch of 0's and the rest in between, then only submit the 1 96% score? If one shooter could get 95%+ on the majority of his tries and another shooter can do it once out of 20+ attempts it seems like there would in reality be a pretty big difference in their abilities.