Less recoil on my PCC?

[stick]

On 11/1/2018 at 3:51 PM, JAFO said:

 

I assume you mean barely making Minor, not Major.  My PCC load in my 16" barrel is ~135 PF, but it's sub-minor out of my 5" pistol.

My PCC is 135PF and out of my 5" M&P the same load is 112PF.  The recoil is not bad.  To the OP, are you really trying to reduce the dot bounce in the gun?

[MemphisMechanic]

6 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

How exactly does it take the rotational torque out of the equation?

 

Beacuse it’s the new! Recoil Awesomeness system!  Featuring 174% more marketing!

 

”This little steel coil spring actually compensates for the rotation of the Earth to make your bullets fly straighter, using patent-pending MadeItUp Tehchnology developed for NASA.”

 

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

<delete>

Edited November 11, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[ericskennard]

7 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

How exactly does it take the rotational torque out of the equation?

The Q buffer is heavy, 8.5 ounces. It is also one of the longest  buffers available. So it reduces impulses, reducing felt recoil. The bolt doesn't have to travel as far before it starts forward again. The Q buffer combined with a really good compensator (I use an MBX) make my PCC's shoot like .22LRs. I have have shot them with several different buffers but you can really tell the difference with this one.

[bwikel]

8 hours ago, ericskennard said:

Save your self a lot of time and trouble. Get a"Q Buffer" from Heavybuffer .com. It will shorten the stroke and flatten out the muzzle rise. It will also take the twist out of the barrel rotation. Don't waste you time or money trying others. Get the Wolf Extra power buffer spring too.

 

Yeah because everyone wants 1.5 lbs of reciprocating mass and an extra power spring to make sure it slams home as hard and as fast as it can. Sounds like a recipe for a pogo stick. 

[Smithcity]

If you are using a blowback 9mm AR your best option is tuning ammo. Obviously reloading is your friend.

 

next best is buying a small box of a dozen or so commercial brands and start measuring chrono and watching dot bounce.

 

you probably wont find much 9mm that is friendly on recoil from a 16in barrel.

 

or say screw it, get a great comp and exercise it with some 170pf 9mm major and see if hot ammo gets you anywhere.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Smithcity
Typo

[Bwillis]

I used a 308 jp spring with the mbx buffer and blue spring, Everglades 147gr rn plated 3.2 gr titegroup mixed brass cci primer 0 felt recoil, little dot bounce super sluggish. 144pf 985fps

 

I switched back to the way Adrian setup it up. Sprinco yellow, mbx buffer green spring, Everglade 124gr fmj, 3.7 gr titegroup mixed brass cci primer recoil isn’t bad dot returns faster, pairs are tighter. 140 pf 1130fps 

[3gunnuts]

On 11/11/2018 at 6:12 PM, ericskennard said:

The Q buffer is heavy, 8.5 ounces. It is also one of the longest  buffers available. So it reduces impulses, reducing felt recoil. The bolt doesn't have to travel as far before it starts forward again. The Q buffer combined with a really good compensator (I use an MBX) make my PCC's shoot like .22LRs. I have have shot them with several different buffers but you can really tell the difference with this one.

Longer buffer is essentially short stroking the gun. Heavy buffer means less recoil into the shoulder and more energy forward when the bolt slams forward. None of that has an impact of changing the rotational torque. So far the general consensus is less reciprocating mass, shorter stroke and fast cycling equates to faster dot recovery caused by less dot movement. How the gun feels in recoil is subjective. My teammate and I run nearly identical setups but his bolt is heavier and his gun is not stroked as short. He actually gets low second hits with my gun as it cycles faster and flatter causing him to overcompensate when pulling it out of recoil compared to his.

[Furrly]

On 11/12/2018 at 7:49 PM, 3gunnuts said:

Longer buffer is essentially short stroking the gun. Heavy buffer means less recoil into the shoulder and more energy forward when the bolt slams forward. None of that has an impact of changing the rotational torque. So far the general consensus is less reciprocating mass, shorter stroke and fast cycling equates to faster dot recovery caused by less dot movement. How the gun feels in recoil is subjective. My teammate and I run nearly identical setups but his bolt is heavier and his gun is not stroked as short. He actually gets low second hits with my gun as it cycles faster and flatter causing him to overcompensate when pulling it out of recoil compared to his.

What set are you running, I'm about to covert my gmr 13 to shot pcc... Thanks 

[3gunnuts]

38 minutes ago, Furrly said:

What set are you running, I'm about to covert my gmr 13 to shot pcc... Thanks 

I spent a lot of rounds analyzing what works best for me and here is what I found.
1) Taccom 3 stage SS kit
2) Remove internal bolt weight
3) Shorten the stroke further just long enough to let the trigger reliably reset
4) Use a good trigger that will take a beating like a JP

 

 

[Furrly]

1 hour ago, 3gunnuts said:

I spent a lot of rounds analyzing what works best for me and here is what I found.
1) Taccom 3 stage SS kit
2) Remove internal bolt weight
3) Shorten the stroke further just long enough to let the trigger reliably reset
4) Use a good trigger that will take a beating like a JP

 

3gunnuts>Thanks for your feedback, excuse my ignorance but I'm new to the PCC game.. 

How do go about #2 and #3 

[Fo0]

8 minutes ago, Furrly said:

3gunnuts>Thanks for your feedback, excuse my ignorance but I'm new to the PCC game.. 

How do go about #2 and #3 

 

#2 is Bolt dependent - some bolts don't have the option to remove weight

[Flatland Shooter]

2 hours ago, Furrly said:

3gunnuts>Thanks for your feedback, excuse my ignorance but I'm new to the PCC game.. 

How do go about #2 and #3 

 

For #2, take a look at your bolt.  You may have a roll pin about an inch and a half from the backside of the bolt.  If so, you can drift out the pin and side the weight out the back of the bolt.  The weight will probably weigh about 2.2 ounces. Not all bolts have removable weights.  My PSA bolts are a good examples.

 

For #3, pull the buffer and spring from the buffer tube.  In the bottom of the tube you place something that will reduce the travel of the buffer.  In my guns, I use quarters.  Stick a couple dollars of quartera into the buffer, replace the buffer and spring. Simple snd inexpensive.  You will now see the rearward movement of the bolt is now reduced.  The trick here is do not add too many quarters where the bolt cannot go back far enough to reset the hammer.

[Furrly]

26 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

For #2, take a look at your bolt.  You may have a roll pin about an inch and a half from the backside of the bolt.  If so, you can drift out the pin and side the weight out the back of the bolt.  The weight will probably weigh about 2.2 ounces. Not all bolts have removable weights.  My PSA bolts are a good examples.

 

For #3, pull the buffer and spring from the buffer tube.  In the bottom of the tube you place something that will reduce the travel of the buffer.  In my guns, I use quarters.  Stick a couple dollars of quartera into the buffer, replace the buffer and spring. Simple snd inexpensive.  You will now see the rearward movement of the bolt is now reduced.  The trick here is do not add too many quarters where the bolt cannot go back far enough to reset the hammer.

Thank for the explanation, 

[3gunnuts]

55 minutes ago, Furrly said:

Thank for the explanation, 

Once I figured out the amount of space I needed to fill I took apart a carbine buffer cut it down and put the plastic plug back in. Stuck it in the bottom of the tube so the taccom kit hits the plastic on the buffer. Quarter work a bit but I bent up a bunch of them experimenting. Going to be some pissed of vending machine techs out there.

[MoRivera]

I use a wave spring and a single quarter to keep it from binding with the buffer spring.  This is with a Kynshot hydraulic buffer, the regular carbine model....

 

https://www.amazon.com/Multiwave-Washers-Stainless-Spring-Capacity/dp/B0085ZOZFI/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&amp;pd_rd_i=B0085ZOZFI&amp;pd_rd_r=a91a6835-eaf4-11e8-aea6-e10ad1dcec26&amp;pd_rd_w=tAZYO&amp;pd_rd_wg=gMKEI&amp;pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&amp;pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&amp;pf_rd_p=6725dbd6-9917-451d-beba-16af7874e407&amp;pf_rd_r=N3HX0JVDJKKBM97B8NCV&amp;pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&amp;pf_rd_t=40701&amp;psc=1&amp;refRID=N3HX0JVDJKKBM97B8NCV

 

Adds some cushioning when the buffer goes all the way back, but with the carbine-sized buffer I still get last round bolt hold open with a Stern Defense mag adapter.

Edited November 18, 2018 by MoRivera

[Furrly]

8 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

Once I figured out the amount of space I needed to fill I took apart a carbine buffer cut it down and put the plastic plug back in. Stuck it in the bottom of the tube so the taccom kit hits the plastic on the buffer. Quarter work a bit but I bent up a bunch of them experimenting. Going to be some pissed of vending machine techs out there.

Thanks for your feedback, what loads are you running.. 

[HoMiE]

Wave springs are not the solution. 

[Furrly]

5 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Wave springs are not the solution. 

Can you please elaborate.. Thanks 

[CalTeacher]

4 hours ago, Furrly said:

Can you please elaborate.. Thanks 

They compress very quickly and are difficult to run with any consistency for extended periods.  Short stroking your buffer system, choosing the right buffer, and playing with your loads is far more effective than wave springs.  

[Furrly]

2 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

They compress very quickly and are difficult to run with any consistency for extended periods.  Short stroking your buffer system, choosing the right buffer, and playing with your loads is far more effective than wave springs.  

Thank you, makes sense.. In reading these post I get so many difference of opinion on buffer systems. Is it just a matter of preference or is one truly better then the other.. I'm getting ready to step into pcc so I am trying to put togther the best set up possible, once. 

I own a jp gmr 13 

Thank you for feedback. 

[TRUBL]

wave springs.....only work IF you limit the travel to what they specify.....and it's not much 

 

[MoRivera]

11 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Wave springs are not the solution. 

Not really meant as a solution to anything, but they do act much like a synthetic spacer that some use in the back of the buffer spring, but with some more 'cushioning' at the rear most travel, since I don't handload.  Also, I do want last round hold open, since in my state we're limited to ten round per mag and often do mag changes (the Sten Defense adapter has LRBHO), so with my buffer setup, the little bit of give in the wave spring helps insure that the bolt will hold back.  Essentially, I just like the overall feel and timing with this setup compared to others I've tried with the ammo I'm shooting.

Edited November 19, 2018 by MoRivera

[HoMiE]

18 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Not really meant as a solution to anything, but they do act much like a synthetic spacer that some use in the back of the buffer spring, but with some more 'cushioning' at the rear most travel, since I don't handload.  Also, I do want last round hold open, since in my state we're limited to ten round per mag and often do mag changes (the Sten Defense adapter has LRBHO), so with my buffer setup, the little bit of give in the wave spring helps insure that the bolt will hold back.  Essentially, I just like the overall feel and timing with this setup compared to others I've tried with the ammo I'm shooting.

You can use them to limit the travel however they do tend to introduce a secondary impulse which to me makes it more difficult to call your shots. AR platform is designed around moving the bcg 2” to get a rifle case ejected, however you only need half that travel for a 9mm case. If you want to shoot factory ammo and you don’t have a short barrel with pinned shroud, you should look at subsonic ammo to reduce your power factor. No sense in shooting factory ammo that produces 150+ pf out of 16” barrels if your looking to reduce recoil. 

[MoRivera]

37 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

You can use them to limit the travel however they do tend to introduce a secondary impulse which to me makes it more difficult to call your shots. AR platform is designed around moving the bcg 2” to get a rifle case ejected, however you only need half that travel for a 9mm case. If you want to shoot factory ammo and you don’t have a short barrel with pinned shroud, you should look at subsonic ammo to reduce your power factor. No sense in shooting factory ammo that produces 150+ pf out of 16” barrels if your looking to reduce recoil. 

Yeah, just the other day I was recommended some 124 subsonic....Federal, I think.  I tried a lot of different combos and liked this one the best with 115 Blazer Brass which I can get locally in bulk for a good price (basically same as ordering bulk online).  Again, if getting LRBHO wasn't something I cared about I might look at things differently.  But this does allow it, and with what's basically a carbine buffer that's somewhere between an H1 and H2, the overall travel/timing is something I like out of the combos I've tried....it's kind of like a short stroke but gets far enough back to lock the bolt, if you will.  I haven't tried removing the BCG weight yet.  As I mentioned way back, yep loading down is the key to really getting the thing down to that flat-shooting 'hose'.  But since I don't handload (yet) I try to get the best combo for what I do shoot.  So I liked the feel of the wave spring compared to an actual spacer or stack of quarters.  Barrel is a 13.5" Taccom Lightweight Tensioned Carbon Fiber with a pinned brake to make 16".

 

When I tried the 124-gr stuff I get from Freedom...even though it feels softer than 115-grs from my pistols that I use for USPSA and steel, in the PCC it felt like it was under water, just a slower rounder cycle with more lift.  So the Blazer 115 for me is less harsh than stuff like WWB or UMC or S&B but I get the quicker cycle so not as much muzzle lift. m I'm still pretty new at this so working my way in.....may eventually have to get into hand loading if I do more competitions with the PPC.  So far just some local stuff.

Edited November 19, 2018 by MoRivera