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PCC laser on target at start

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Shot a club match over the weekend. The RO told me that there was a recent change in rules that no longer allowed you to start with the laser aimed at a target. I looked, and didn't see anything mentioned anywhere. Is this legit?

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Nope. Made up. When you hear stuff like this, ask them to cite the rule/ruling. You may help to further the RO's education... ?

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Shot a club match over the weekend. The RO told me that there was a recent change in rules that no longer allowed you to start with the laser aimed at a target. I looked, and didn't see anything mentioned anywhere. Is this legit?
As til tok said there is no ruling on that. The RO just doesn't like pcc so he makes up rules.

Now, that being said, level 1 clubs that are not 100% affiliated and are running outlaw matches can make up rules as they see fit.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

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6 minutes ago, mstamper said:

As til tok said there is no ruling on that. The RO just doesn't like pcc so he makes up rules.

Now, that being said, level 1 clubs that are not 100% affiliated and are running outlaw matches can make up rules as they see fit.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
 

There is no 100% affiliated. A club is either affiliated or not.?

  As much as I dislike PCC I truly despise rules shenanigans.

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If they don't want a laser aimed at a target at the start, they need to specify a start position that incorporates an aiming point that's away from the targets, like Steel Challenge.

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On 10/30/2018 at 9:28 AM, Sarge said:

There is no 100% affiliated. A club is either affiliated or not.?

True. But an affiliated club can run outlaw matches too. 

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15 minutes ago, six-gun shooter said:

True. But an affiliated club can run outlaw matches too. 

Correct but they can’t reference the letter USPSA like the op stated this was

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On 10/30/2018 at 11:36 AM, ChuckS said:

Nope. Made up. When you hear stuff like this, ask them to cite the rule/ruling. You may help to further the RO's education... ?

Some people can't embrace PCC as a division in USPSA.  They will make $hit up to screw with you.

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It depends on what the start position listed in the WSB stated. The one thing is consistency. As long as all PCCs started the same, it doesn’t matter. It’s when people push the limits that causes so many problems. It’s like writing low ready. I’ve seen guys hold the gun pointed almost at their own feet to another holding it a half inch below their eye. WSB has to be specific. Ever look at people and their versions of hands relaxed at sides. Never knew a persons side was in front of their belt buckle.... somebody always trying to gain an advantage for what? If you practice and train clearly within all rules, you won’t ever have an issue no matter what division you are shooting.

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I shot an outlaw match last weekend and they had some stages where PCC butt stock on hip and weakhand at relaxed at side.. That was a new one for me.

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9 hours ago, Underwood said:

I shot an outlaw match last weekend and they had some stages where PCC butt stock on hip and weakhand at relaxed at side.. That was a new one for me.

 

Prison Guard Ready :D

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11 hours ago, Underwood said:

I shot an outlaw match last weekend and they had some stages where PCC butt stock on hip and weakhand at relaxed at side.. That was a new one for me.

 

I was about to say, "Our club uses that start position sometimes," then I realized you were talking about our Hosefest!!  :roflol:

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18 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

I was about to say, "Our club uses that start position sometimes," then I realized you were talking about our Hosefest!!  :roflol:

It was a blast . We will be coming back next year...fun stages for sure !!

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Chris, I really like that start position. It somewhat equalizes the dead time to first shot between PCC and other divisions, and prevents people from gaming starts where you're facing targets. I'm happy you guys are working it into matches. 

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53 minutes ago, Xanatos903 said:

Chris, I really like that start position. It somewhat equalizes the dead time to first shot between PCC and other divisions, and prevents people from gaming starts where you're facing targets. I'm happy you guys are working it into matches. 

That's idiotic. Not only did you make it borderline dangerous / impossible for a small shooter, you still dont understand that divisions do not compete against one another. That's like saying Open can only draw with the left hand because you want to make race holster draws as slow as Single Stack. Clubs like this need to really question if their "clever " ideas are really growing the sport or just ensuring folks, especially juniors,

don't come back. 

 

PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters. Doing ridiculous circus crap only reduces your shooter turnout. 

 

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Cory, show me in the rulebook where the bad man touched you...

 

Frankly, if a junior shooter cannot safely hold a rifle horizontally with one hand at their hip, they shouldn't be shooting PCC at a match anyway. 

 

Fair enough criticism about how the divisions all shoot separate matches. I make that same argument when people are mad about PCC being allowed at all, so I'll drop that point. Maybe the true benefit of the start position is that it requires more skill to execute quickly and ensure that the PCC is mounted correctly. I know that in my practice this start position leads to inconsistent positioning in the shoulder pocket. 

 

And if we're going to keep rolling with discouraging shooters because of the difficulty of matches, let's get rid of low ports, hard leans, unloaded starts, stages that make you run more than 20 yards, partial targets, and activators.

 

What's your suggestion for other good start positions? I think we're all fine with port arms and muzzle touching "X", what else would you suggest for some variety and challenge? 

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That's idiotic. Not only did you make it borderline dangerous / impossible for a small shooter, you still dont understand that divisions do not compete against one another. That's like saying Open can only draw with the left hand because you want to make race holster draws as slow as Single Stack. Clubs like this need to really question if their "clever " ideas are really growing the sport or just ensuring folks, especially juniors,
don't come back. 
 
PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters. Doing ridiculous circus crap only reduces your shooter turnout. 
 


Is your hip in a different location than a shooter of more typical proportions?

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5 minutes ago, Xanatos903 said:

 

Frankly, if a junior shooter cannot safely hold a rifle horizontally with one hand at their hip, they shouldn't be shooting PCC at a match anyway. 

 

 

So you are championing a start position that may eliminate some junior shooters?  Maybe we can knock out a few seniors and female shooters at the same time.

 

With a little creativity, we can come up with a PCC start position that is "unsafe" for anyone that is not between 18 and 35 years of age and does not spend at least six hours at the gym weekly.

 

I have no problems with new and unusual start positions for PCC (or any other division) but once it may result in unsafe conditions, its time to school the stage designers.

 

Personally I think that PCC is a great way to start young shooters.  As with most youths, my father started me out with a single shot .22 LR.  As I matured and proved I was able to handle a firearm safely, I was upgraded to center fire rifles, shotguns, and finally pistols.  If I had a young child, I would start them in PCC and as they grew into the sport, add the option of a pistol.

 

There are a lot of junior shooters that can shoot a course of fire safely but I doubt that a pistol was their first firearm.

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Keep in mind that we're not saying anything like "arm fully extended, gun not supported on any object." That would require an inordinate amount of strength for a junior shooter. But if they can't even support the weight of the rifle in a position that isn't strenuous in the least, I'd presume they don't have the strength to safely control the rifle as they're going through a stage. 

 

I just don't understand what image y'all have in your heads of this start position that it screams safety hazard. 

 

 

Edited by Xanatos903

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1 minute ago, Xanatos903 said:

 

I just don't understand what image y'all have in your heads of this start position that it screams safety hazard. 

 

 

You are the one that pointed out it could be a safely hazard.

 

"Frankly, if a junior shooter cannot safely hold a rifle horizontally with one hand at their hip, they shouldn't be shooting PCC at a match anyway."

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7 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

You are the one that pointed out it could be a safely hazard.

 

"Frankly, if a junior shooter cannot safely hold a rifle horizontally with one hand at their hip, they shouldn't be shooting PCC at a match anyway."

Ahh, I misunderstood your post. I clarified that point in my last post: 

 

"But if they can't even support the weight of the rifle in a position that isn't strenuous in the least, I'd presume they don't have the strength to safely control the rifle as they're going through a stage."

 

But to say it a different way, I'm imagining a 6 year old trying to run through a USPSA stage with a PCC. I can't imagine that's the safest thing because they simply won't have the strength to control the rifle. But someone who is older, say 10, can likely steady the rifle enough to make it through a stage. I'm willing to bet that someone that age could also hold a rifle at their hip for a few seconds without any trouble. It's not going to be as big of an issue as y'all are making it out to be. 

 

Pool noodles are "circus crap", tire jumping is "circus crap", holding a rifle at your side for a short period is not circus crap. 

Edited by Xanatos903

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1 minute ago, Xanatos903 said:

Pool noodles are "circus crap", tire jumping is "circus crap", holding a rifle at your side for a short period is not circus crap. 

 

I agree that holding a rifle at your side is not circus crap, but I do question why that start position is on the WSB to begin with. 

 

Is it just to give variety to a stage (OK by me) or is it to penalize the PCC shooter?   Again quoting one of your earlier posts, "It somewhat equalizes the dead time to first shot between PCC and other divisions".

 

What is your justification to "equalize" divisions?  Why is it needed?  How does it make the sport better?

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1 hour ago, Xanatos903 said:

Fair enough criticism about how the divisions all shoot separate matches. I make that same argument when people are mad about PCC being allowed at all, so I'll drop that point. Maybe the true benefit of the start position is that it requires more skill to execute quickly and ensure that the PCC is mounted correctly. I know that in my practice this start position leads to inconsistent positioning in the shoulder pocket. 

 

There's a better explanation. After thinking about it, equalization between divisions is unnecessary. It does, however, provide a challenge to PCC shooters.

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On 11/2/2018 at 6:39 AM, Underwood said:

I shot an outlaw match last weekend and they had some stages where PCC butt stock on hip and weakhand at relaxed at side.. That was a new one for me.

One of the clubs I shoot at is similar.  They have the WSB written to say Stock on hip, weak hand holding PCC, strong hand relaxed at side.

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Good Grief !

 

Maybe they could add standing on strong side leg only.

You know. Just to add a little more challenge.

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