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PCC laser on target at start


thepunishur

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1 hour ago, Xanatos903 said:

I'm all for just making all stages bill drills of varying distance with PCCs starting aiming down the sights at the target. 

Don't forget "I'm a little teapot start" with gun held above head, pointed downrange, hip cocked. 

 

There's a difference between shooting challenges such as low ports and asinine nonsense like starts actually described and done at a match. If you dislike PCC, maybe just stay out of it and shoot whichever division brings you joy. I'm not a revolver shooter but even at our all falling steel match I consider the 1 token wheel gunner in my stage designs. He's a great dude and I'm glad he is around. Maybe think of PCC as more people enjoying a match rather than a group of folks that shoots fast splits and gets all the chicks. ?

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1 hour ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Don't forget "I'm a little teapot start" with gun held above head, pointed downrange, hip cocked. 

 

There's a difference between shooting challenges such as low ports and asinine nonsense like starts actually described and done at a match. If you dislike PCC, maybe just stay out of it and shoot whichever division brings you joy. I'm not a revolver shooter but even at our all falling steel match I consider the 1 token wheel gunner in my stage designs. He's a great dude and I'm glad he is around. Maybe think of PCC as more people enjoying a match rather than a group of folks that shoots fast splits and gets all the chicks. ?

 

I'm way into PCC, so I'm not advocating for this as a way to single them out and punish them. You might remember me as the PCC shooter in your squad at the Space City Challenge who slipped on mud and DQ'd earlier this year. 

 

In the same way that turn and draw, sitting, and hands on "X" starts offer variety and challenge, I think this is a good start position. It's not exclusionary to anyone because it's not a physically difficult start position. 

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I have no problems with new and unusual start positions as long as it can be done safely by the competitors.

 

If the match director wants lots of prone shooting, hard leans, and even a few “circus” things, more power to them. But only as long as they can be done safely. 

 

And if the match starts to die off when shooters don’t return, so be it. 

 

(Side note:  I’m a super senior that after several years stopped attending one of the local matches.  I didn’t change much but new management decided neat things like multiple prone positions on half the stages would be the norm. It was no longer a fun event for me. Like some others, I’ve found better ways to entertain myself that weekend.)

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As an occasional pcc shooter, i feel compelled to mock the people who took up pcc in hopes of not having to practice anymore. Those seem to be the people whining about any start position that might require practice to get good at. Y'all are why people make fun of pcc in the first place.

 

We try to put challenges in for all divisions. If you don't want to be challenged, watch TV instead.

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Look at it this way.  All pistol shooters have to draw from the holster, and that introduces variability.  The possibility of getting a bad grip with the strong hand, incorrect support hand positioning, etc, can all lead to a bad draw.  That draw becomes part of their training/practice regimen, just like table pickups and unloaded starts.  For PCC, mounting the gun is akin to drawing.  If all the starts were already mounted with the muzzle pointing in various directions, that removes a challenge to the shooter.  "Stock on belt" helps remedy that, but by requiring the weak hand to be off of the rifle, you add yet another challenge - correct position of the support hand.

 

The match that started this thread drift didn't use "stock on belt, weak hand at side" for every stage.  I think it was two out of seven.  The others used a mix of low ready, muzzle on X, and stock on belt (held with both hands).  It's just variety and added challenge to the shooter at the "draw".

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On 11/5/2018 at 5:30 PM, JAFO said:

Look at it this way.  All pistol shooters have to draw from the holster, and that introduces variability.  The possibility of getting a bad grip with the strong hand, incorrect support hand positioning, etc, can all lead to a bad draw.  That draw becomes part of their training/practice regimen, just like table pickups and unloaded starts.  For PCC, mounting the gun is akin to drawing.  If all the starts were already mounted with the muzzle pointing in various directions, that removes a challenge to the shooter.  "Stock on belt" helps remedy that, but by requiring the weak hand to be off of the rifle, you add yet another challenge - correct position of the support hand.

 

That's pretty similar to how I view it.  Every other division, BY RULE, has to start with their hands NOT in the firing position on the gun.  Removing that takes away a significant part of the challenge from the game.  Requiring one hand or the other to be off the gun re-introduces that element.  Moreover, with the stock allowed/required to be against the belt, very little additional strength is required.  In fact, if the start position requires the strong hand to be off the gun with the stock on belt, that requires much less strength than just holding the gun with both hands while moving.

 

I would add that we do lots of "muzzle downrange, stock on belt, strong hand relaxed at side (or above shoulder)" at the match I MD.  There was initially some grumbling, but once people shot it a few times, they figured it out.  Moreover, that position is becoming more common in other matches, and it helps shooters to encounter it frequently in smaller club matches.  

 

One may as well complain about how uprange handgun starts make the sport unsafe or may keep some people with bad knees from being able to participate.  This stuff is well within the type of thing that USPSA has always, and I hope always will, pose as a challenge to shooters.  

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you can pretty much make up rules at a level 1 match,  as long as you state a start position on a piece of paper for each stage. (written stage description)  for all divisions then you can take out the gaming of a stage.  easiest way to fix PCC is to make the start position aiming at  a clay pigeon on the floor in front of the starting area or put a orange shooting paster on a wall and have them aim the barrel in that direction with butt on hip.

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11 hours ago, Sarge said:

I’m talking about the mentality of making up rules at level I matches, not PCC.

 

The proposed 2019 rules take care of this:

Quote
1.31.3.1Match organizers wishing to receive Level II or Level III USPSA sanction must comply with the general principles of course design and course construction as well as all other current USPSA rules and regulations relevant to the discipline. Except where noted in these rules, Level I matches must comply with all rules.  Matches that do not comply with these requirements will not be sanctioned, and must not be publicized or announced as USPSA sanctioned matches..1

 

For those who haven't seen the proposed rule changes you can see them here https://uspsa.org/rulebook/

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1 hour ago, jhgtyre said:

 

The proposed 2019 rules take care of this:

 

For those who haven't seen the proposed rule changes you can see them here https://uspsa.org/rulebook/

Sure I saw that but I doubt this will cure the problem. It’s always been against the rules to run things the way you want locally. There were a few exemptions but other than that the rules were written to apply to all matches at all levels.

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I would like to know how many USPSA shooters have come back to shooting BECAUSE they can shoot PCC.  Young eyes have become old and they can't afford a $3K Open gun. Bad knees, etc. etc.  I for one have seen a lot of guys that left, back at the range because of PCC.  All I ask is don't make up crazy rules for start positions for the PCC. Butt on belt, held with both hands, muzzle down range. I can put up with all the other stage design tricks, because we all, in every division, have to adjust to those stages.  I have shot this division the best of any I have tried.  PCC is the only reason I am still able to shoot. Probably because I am 73 years old it does gives me some advantages. However those advantages are only against other PCC shooters. (am darn few of those)

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1 hour ago, Texas45 said:

I would like to know how many USPSA shooters have come back to shooting BECAUSE they can shoot PCC.  Young eyes have become old and they can't afford a $3K Open gun. Bad knees, etc. etc.  I for one have seen a lot of guys that left, back at the range because of PCC.  All I ask is don't make up crazy rules for start positions for the PCC. Butt on belt, held with both hands, muzzle down range. I can put up with all the other stage design tricks, because we all, in every division, have to adjust to those stages.  I have shot this division the best of any I have tried.  PCC is the only reason I am still able to shoot. Probably because I am 73 years old it does gives me some advantages. However those advantages are only against other PCC shooters. (am darn few of those)

That was supposed to be Carry Optics niche. 

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On 11/17/2018 at 6:00 AM, Texas45 said:

.  All I ask is don't make up crazy rules for start positions for the PCC. Butt on belt, held with both hands, muzzle down range.

How about all the "crazy rules for start positions" for all the other divisions?  Wrists above shoulders?  Both hands touching X marks?  Hand not on gun?  How is asking a PCC to start with one hand off the gun more "crazy" than all the stuff everyone else in the match is having to do? 

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Laser:
I saw my first PCC laser last Saturday.  I was amazed that the shooter was allowed to start with the beam on target, but hey, the CoF said "butt on belt, barrel pointed downrange" and the target was downrange.  At the beep, he just pulled the trigger.  He did then shoulder the gun and aim instead of swinging the guide beam to the next target which would have been cooler. 

 

Starting position:

I like the SC system of a starting index point, although it probably doesn't matter except in cases like the above, gun equipped with laser, target close enough to see the spot. 

 

Scoring:

Everybody SAYS PCC (or any other Division) only competes against similar guns.  Everybody LOOKS first at the overall standings.  If we were serious about Divisional competition, we would tell Practiscore to stop posting overalls. 

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22 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Everybody LOOKS first at the overall standings

I don't.  I look at the division standings for myself and my friends.  I pretty much avoid the overall standings unless I need to see which division someone is in.

 

24 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

He did then shoulder the gun and aim instead of swinging the guide beam to the next target which would have been cooler. 

I've done this with a PCC and it's definitely a case diminishing returns after the first couple of targets, at least for me it was.

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46 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Scoring:

Everybody SAYS PCC (or any other Division) only competes against similar guns.  Everybody LOOKS first at the overall standings.  If we were serious about Divisional competition, we would tell Practiscore to stop posting overalls. 

 

You don't have to look at combined results if you don't want. But then if you want to compare apples with some other apples and exclude other apples - there is a PractiScore Competitor app, which lets you to select divisions you want to combine with each other and exclude divisions you don't want to combine with. That is besides bunch of other things it could do...

 

But then again, if PCC is that much of an advantage comparing to other divisions, how come an Open shooter won over PCC by over 6% at the last USPSA Optics Nationals?
https://practiscore.com/results/html/e9587e4a-1ee0-44a5-8864-53e219468aaf?page=overall-combined

 

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If there were PCC only matches I would be interested in shooting them. Make the challenge specific to a carbine with  some tighter and some longer shots depending on what the range can handle.  They are really cool guns but I have no desire to shoot one in a regular USPSA match.

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Little background: I'm a certified RO, PCC shooter, Club VP,  sometimes MD, and almost always at setup to help with stages and WSBs.

 

While I don't care about a PCC shooter being able to lase the first target from the starting position as far as keeping the playing field level within the division, I think its dumb for a WSB to allow it. This is about shooting and gun manipulation challenges, and while I guess you could argue that hip shooting with a laser is a shooting challenge I find it far more interesting to challenge the shooter to start in such a way the have to manipulate the gun a bit more.  One sentence in the WSB and maybe a marker on the COF is all it takes to fix this "problem"   

 

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