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New format for Steel Challenge idea


Nimitz

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I've had this idea for some time about how to possibly make SC "more interesting" for USPSA shooters and so I've decided to post it here to see what others think.  If the discussion becomes interesting enough I'll probably turn it into a topic for an up coming podcast ...

So here's the background:  one of the chief 'complaints' about the sport from hardcore USPSA shooters is that since the stages never change, there is not as much challenge as with USPSA since you never know what the stage will be prior to the match.  Ok, we can't change that the stages are always the same but we can make the shooting challenge possibly more interesting and at the same time test your skills which, after all, is what this is all about.

If you're a dedicated SC shooter you already know that a lot of what some USPSA shooters claim is an easy sport is nothing of the sort but my intent is not to argue that.

 

Ok, my new version of Steel Challenge is called "Random Steel Challenge" and here's how it would work:

 

when a shooter steps into the box the RO picks up a 'random number generator', hits a button and a number sequence spits out.  This random number sequence consists of numbers from 1-5 and now is the shooting order that the shooter must shoot all 5 runs of that stage. Plates are numbered from 1-5, L-R as seen from the shooting box just like the numbering system that I created in my book & have been using for  years: simple, consistent for every stage & matches what you see from inside the box.   That's it.

 

here's an example:  5TG;  using my numbering system plate #1 is the 10 yd plate, #2 is the 12 yd, #3 is 15yd, #4 is the 18 yd & the stop plate is #5. Just about everyone on the planet knows you shoot this stage : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (stop plate).  But in Random Steel Challenge you could step into the box and be given the order: 3, 2, 1, 4, 5. which is a much different shooting challenge.  For those who would say that it would not be "fair' because some shooters might get a "harder' shooting order than others, remember it's random so is should even out in the end over 8 stages.  You could also make it random every run which would create 39 different sequences each match per shooter which would likely even out things even quicker.  However, please realize that the better the shooter you are the less important shooting order really matters.  Anyone want to claim that they could beat Max or KC or BJ if they were required to shoot each stage randomly while you get to shoot it like you've always done & practiced?

 

Also don't get hung up on the mechanics of executing this in a match.  You could easily develop a sheet of paper that has all the possible sequence combos numbered from 1-n for each stage and have the shooter pick a number which then correlates to a shooting order.  However, I suspect writing an App for a random number 1-5 generator would be quite straight forward.  Anyway, I'd like this to be a conceptual discussion only.  Figuring out how to execute it won't really be that hard.

 

Anyway, there it is.  let the flaming begin .... lol

 

 

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Nawwww….   One of the nice things about SCSA is that you can compare yourself to other shooters in your division and class across the country and even around the world... while you could still do it by sorting out who shot what stage in what order it would certainly add complexity to a discipline that does not need it.  

 

It never ceases to amaze me why USPSA ( Not you K ) shooters keep trying to justify SC as a training tool for their USPSA matches... I know if I was younger and serious about USPSA and I had a choice between SC and another range with a sanctioned USPSA match I would think the USPSA match would benefit my skills learning far better than a SC match  

If no other match is available then shoot SC for what it is... Speed and accuracy with out movement... well mostly... but that is a whole other can of worms..   :)

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Nothing wrong with thinking out of the box. But...

 

But forcing different shooting orders on a random basis ensures competitive inequity.

 

I know just enough about statistics to probably make a fool out of myself but I believe that to claim that "it's random so it should even out in the end over 8 stages." is mathematically incorrect. 

You would need a far larger sample size before you could even start to consider making that claim and even then there is no absolute insurance that there would be no advantage for a given shooter.

 

I think the general idea to provide more variability in the stages is reasonable but I don't think this is the way to do it.

 

Is there anything really wrong with having steel challenge be it's own little special niche in the shooting sports as currently defined?

 

 

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I RO a lot of SCSA matches, and I'm sure the SC gods already zap random shooting orders into shooter's minds.  SAme with USPSA.  I often wonder what ever prompted you to adopt that stage plan.

 

I routinely shoot SCSA and USPSA, and love both.  I don't care if a bunch of USPSA shooters might try SC if it were made 'more challenging'.  If they actually tried it, they may feel more humble.  In USPSA you have to run/move fast.  In SC you must shoot fast and accurately.  Plus you surrender draw.  I don't buy the CW that surrender is quicker.  It certainly isn't for me.

 

BTW.  Zach, the reason I don't shoot more sanctioned SCSA matches is exactly the two stage rule.  Why on earth would I travel 100 miles just to shoot two official stages?  If there aren't 4, 5 or 6 official stages, it's not worth the travel for me.

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On 10/28/2018 at 10:57 AM, Nimitz said:

I've had this idea for some time about how to possibly make SC "more interesting" for USPSA shooters and so I've decided to post it here to see what others think.  If the discussion becomes interesting enough I'll probably turn it into a topic for an up coming podcast ...

So here's the background:  one of the chief 'complaints' about the sport from hardcore USPSA shooters is that since the stages never change, there is not as much challenge as with USPSA since you never know what the stage will be prior to the match.  Ok, we can't change that the stages are always the same but we can make the shooting challenge possibly more interesting and at the same time test your skills which, after all, is what this is all about.

If you're a dedicated SC shooter you already know that a lot of what some USPSA shooters claim is an easy sport is nothing of the sort but my intent is not to argue that.

 

Ok, my new version of Steel Challenge is called "Random Steel Challenge" and here's how it would work:

 

when a shooter steps into the box the RO picks up a 'random number generator', hits a button and a number sequence spits out.  This random number sequence consists of numbers from 1-5 and now is the shooting order that the shooter must shoot all 5 runs of that stage. Plates are numbered from 1-5, L-R as seen from the shooting box just like the numbering system that I created in my book & have been using for  years: simple, consistent for every stage & matches what you see from inside the box.   That's it.

 

here's an example:  5TG;  using my numbering system plate #1 is the 10 yd plate, #2 is the 12 yd, #3 is 15yd, #4 is the 18 yd & the stop plate is #5. Just about everyone on the planet knows you shoot this stage : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (stop plate).  But in Random Steel Challenge you could step into the box and be given the order: 3, 2, 1, 4, 5. which is a much different shooting challenge.  For those who would say that it would not be "fair' because some shooters might get a "harder' shooting order than others, remember it's random so is should even out in the end over 8 stages.  You could also make it random every run which would create 39 different sequences each match per shooter which would likely even out things even quicker.  However, please realize that the better the shooter you are the less important shooting order really matters.  Anyone want to claim that they could beat Max or KC or BJ if they were required to shoot each stage randomly while you get to shoot it like you've always done & practiced?

 

Also don't get hung up on the mechanics of executing this in a match.  You could easily develop a sheet of paper that has all the possible sequence combos numbered from 1-n for each stage and have the shooter pick a number which then correlates to a shooting order.  However, I suspect writing an App for a random number 1-5 generator would be quite straight forward.  Anyway, I'd like this to be a conceptual discussion only.  Figuring out how to execute it won't really be that hard.

 

Anyway, there it is.  let the flaming begin .... lol

 

 

Ken. Maybe you need to shoot Rimfire Challenge instead of Steel Challenge. 

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At club matches you can run as many made up stages as you want as long as you run 2 official ones.


Personally, I would shoot more SCSA if this was the norm. As you know in a USPSA match you typically have 1 classifier and then the rest of the stages are ones you’ve never seen before. It keeps things interesting.

I think if a club has 6 pits they should have 4 outlaw stages and 2 SCSA stages. It would be a better representation of who is the better shooter, not who can setup and practice the same 8 stages the most.
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BTW.  Zach, the reason I don't shoot more sanctioned SCSA matches is exactly the two stage rule.  Why on earth would I travel 100 miles just to shoot two official stages?  If there aren't 4, 5 or 6 official stages, it's not worth the travel for me.


That’s understandable. We added this to accommodate some clubs that can only set up some of the smaller stages due to berm limitations. While Steel Challenge is primarily shot here in the USA we do have foreign clubs that can’t run all of the stages. We have one that can only run 3 stages period. I do enjoy the variety of stages but if you are going to do that don’t just flip flop the plate sizes on Smoke & Hope and expect me to get all excited about it. For me 6 stages is just about right for club match. One month run 4 official and 2 fun and next month run the other 4 official stages. That way competitors get to shoot all 8.
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I think if a club has 6 pits they should have 4 outlaw stages and 2 SCSA stages. It would be a better representation of who is the better shooter, not who can setup and practice the same 8 stages the most.


Talk with the MD and maybe propose 3/3 and volunteer to help. As a MD I can tell you we love
volunteers to help with setup.
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Talk with the MD and maybe propose 3/3 and volunteer to help. As a MD I can tell you we love
volunteers to help with setup.

Zach is correct without folks helping set up and break down it can become a burden at times . Many hands make light work as they say. This is how matches die at clubs because lack of help . Please don’t think anything you can do is trivial , it all helps in the long run . Remember the MD and RO,s like to shoot too[emoji41]. Sorry if it sounds like a rant well maybe a little


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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At the nc state match a few of us bounced around an idea to have a little extra fun at a large match. We talked about setting up a few teams of 3 or 4 people and doing a best team time in 4 or 5 "divisions." So the divisions could be any rimfire iron, rimfire pistol, pcc, and centerfire pistol iron (or any chosen set). Best time for any team member that would fit into the chosen "divisions" would be added up to become the team score. Every team member tosses in x amount, and winning teams dinner/beer is paid for. 

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I have to say that I'm quite surprised at everyone's response ....  some points to think about based on what I've read:

- Ignoring the 'potential' competitive inequity' for a moment, i don't see anything 'bad' about being told a shooting order and then with only a few seconds to think about it, have to perform against that standard.  To me, that is quite a bit more challenging then simply shooting an order you've practiced and shooting it.  If you want to really test a shooter's actual skill level you give them a shooting challenge to execute in real-time which they are not necessarily familiar with and see how they perform.

-  If the idea that not everyone is shooting exactly the same order really bothers people than you simply select a random order at the start of the match for each stage & everyone (for that day) shoots that order.

-  for those of you who have read Brian Enos' book, you might remember he talks a lot about 'habit shooting' particularly in the sections of his book where he discusses his Steel Challenge shooting days.  "Habit shooting" is where you just do the same thing over and over again by route, and where you are not actually in real-time seeing what you need to see and making adjustments in micro seconds based on what your training has taught you WRT to your fundamental techniques.  Most people see that as sub conscious shooting but it's not.  When you're shooting 'subconsciously" you're letting your subconscious mind takeover and do what you've trained it to do.  You're not thinking about things - this is the conscious mind and more importantly, you're not just habit shooting where you just do the same thing over and over, regardless of whatever feedback you may be getting in real-time as you are shooting.

This is one of the pitfalls I see from a lot of shooters who make the same mistakes over and over again at matches.  they simply have got in the habit of shooting a stage in a certain order but the real-time feedback loop the subconscious mind needs to make corrections as it gets feedback is missing.

-  here's another way to tell that you may be habit shooting:  when you go to a local match and see that maybe some stages have the targets not all level and that really bothers you that is because you've been doing a lot of habit shooting.  In other words, you expect to see things a certain way since that is familiar and  comfortable to you (ie:a habit), and when faced with the fact that it isn't you become somewhat "unhappy".   For the shooter who has trained his subconscious mind correctly, he doesn't concern himself with that because he knows it dosen't actually matter as his subconscious mind will make real-time corrections based on the feedback he is getting from what he is seeing

 

One of the reasons I created the random transition drill (pg 111 in my book) was to specifically address the issue of 'habit shooting'. When you can walk up to a stage, have someone call out a shooting order to you and then you shoot it in roughly the same time as you do for the order you regularity train on, that is when you know your skills have developed to a point where you are actually shooting subconsciously.

 

But you all have nothing to worry about, since I'm in charge of nothing, you will never have to worry about shooting anything like a Random Steel Challenge Match ....

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